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Papacy built on pious fiction and forgery, part 1
Beggars All ^ | May 26, 2010 | John Bugay

Posted on 02/13/2015 5:56:00 PM PST by RnMomof7

Papacy built on pious fiction and forgery, part 1

J. Gresham Machen said, in his 1915 lecture "History and Faith," that "The student of the New Testament should be primarily an historian."

And in fact, thanks to the last few centuries' worth of historical criticism, and a couple of “historical Jesus” quests, both the life of Jesus and the history of the New Testament have undergone a thorough historical examination, and in the process, have only had their historical reliability enhanced.

On the other hand, what we've been told about the early papacy has fallen away like chaff. Instead of boasts about the papacy being "instituted by Christ" and "immediately and directly" given to Peter and "perpetual successors," now, Joseph Ratzinger has stepped back and said that the papacy "goes back to the Lord and was developed faithfully in the nascent church." (Ratzinger, "Called to Communion," page 72.)

How was it "faithfully developed"?

In the first place, some Catholics will say that it is no contradiction that this "immediate" and "perpetual" power nevertheless had to "develop." But I am writing to individuals who, able to read and think, will easily be able to see the disjunction at this point.

Eamon Duffy, who was President of Magdalene College at Cambridge, and a church historian, wrote the following summary ("Saints and Sinners: A History of the Popes")

Irenaeus thought that the Church had been 'founded and organised at Rome by the two glorious Apostles, Peter and Paul,' and that its faith had been reliably passed down to posterity by an unbroken succession of bishops, the first of them chosen and consecrated by the Apostles themselves. He named the bishops who had succeeded the Apostles, in the process providing us with the earliest surviving list of the popes -- Linus, Anacletus, Clement, Evaristus, Alexander, Sixtus, and so on down to Irenaeus' contemporary and friend Eleutherius, Bishop of Rome from AD 174 to 189.

All the essential claims of the modern papacy, it might seem, are contained in this Gospel saying about the Rock, and in Irenaeus' account of the apostolic pedigree of the early bishops of Rome. Yet matters are not so simple. The popes trace their commission from Christ through Peter, yet for Irenaeus the authority of the Church at Rome came from its foundation by two Apostles, not one, Peter and Paul, not Peter alone. The tradition that Peter and Paul had been put to death at the hands of Nero in Rome about the year ad 64 was universally accepted in the second century, and by the end of that century pilgrims to Rome were being shown the 'trophies' of the Apostles, their tombs or cenotaphs, Peter's on the Vatical Hill, and Paul's on the Via Ostiensis, outside the walls on the road to the coast. Yet on all of this the New Testament is silent. Later legend would fill out the details of Peter's life and death in Rome -- his struggles with the magician and father of heresy, Simon Magus, his miracles, his attempted escape from persecution in Rome, a flight from which he was turned back by a reproachful vision by Christ (the 'Quo Vadis' legend), and finally his crucifixion upside down in the Vatican Circus at the time of the Emperor Nero. These stories were to be accepted as sober history by some of the greatest minds of the early Church -- Origen, Ambrose, Augustine. But they are pious romance, not history, and the fact is that we have no reliable accounts either of Peter's later life or the manner or place of his death. Neither Peter nor Paul founded the Church at Rome, for there were Christians in the city before either of the Apostles set foot there. Nor can we assume, as Irenaeus did, that the Apostles established there a succession of bishops to carry on their work in the city, for all the indications are that there was no single bishop at Rome for almost a century after the deaths of the Apostles. In fact, wherever we turn, the solid outlines of the Petrine succession at Rome seem to blur and dissolve. (Duffy, pg 2.)
In a world where history affirms the life of Christ, the testimony of his resurrection, and in which the New Testament has been affirmed as reliable history, and the movements of Paul and the events in his life pinned down to the very year they happened, this same study of history has washed away the underpinnings of the historical papacy.

In fact, the city of Rome was very geographically diverse, and throughout the first half of the second century, the Roman church was led by a network of presbyters in a network of house churches.
These presbyters fought among themselves as to who was greatest. I've quoted Hermas from "The Shepherd of Hermas as saying, "They had a certain jealousy of one another over questions of preeminence and about some kind of distinction. But they are all fools to be jealous of one another regarding preeminence.”

Roger Collins relates, "The sheer size of Rome would have made it hard for Christians to create a single organizational structure or congregate in one part of the city. Because the earliest Christian groups grew out of the Jewish community, their presence in Rome probably mirrored that of the Jews, with particular concentrations in certain neighborhoods, notably Trastavere. As the new faith began making converts, probably mostly amongst immigrants and across a growing range of social classes, the dispersal of Christians throughout the city intensified. Because of the persecution of Christians by Nero around ad 64, it became prudent to live and meet in small groups, and avoid congregating in public in large numbers. Because they worshiped in rooms dedicated to the purpose in private houses and kept their meetings very discreet creating a clerical hierarchy exercising authority over the different Christian groups in the city proved a slow process." (Roger Collins, "Keepers of the Keys of Heaven, pg. 13)
Indications of this can be found in text produced by Christian writers in Rome in the late first and second centuries. The author of the Epistle of Clement may have been the man of this name later described as the person responsible for drafting communications sent on behalf of the Christians of Rome to other churches. But by the time of Tertullian and Irenaeus, Clement was listed as the second or third bishop of Rome.

This difference of perspective on Clement is telling. The late-second-century authors were probably reporting a tradition that had grown up in Rome in which leading figures amongst the elders of their day were retrospectively turned into bishops, to produce a continuous list of holders of the office stretching back to Peter. Why this happened can be explained, but it would be helpful to ask which of the people named by Irenaeus and Tertullian should be regarded as the first real bishop of the city. Most scholars now agree that the answer would be Anicetus, who comes in tenth on both lists, and whose episcopate likely covered the years 155 to 166.

Not everyone is convinced that what has been called a monarchic bishop, with unquestioned authority over all the Christian clergy in the city, was to be found in Rome even as early as this, and Fabian (236-250) has been proposed as the first bishop of Rome in the full sense. (Collins, 13-14)
As I've mentioned, committed Roman Catholics will simply dismiss this historical work as "modernist" or worse, and with the wave of a hand, they will assert, in Newmanesque fashion, that the burden of proof lies with the modern historian to "prove" that there was not simply an unbroken succession from Peter onward. But what I've given you are mere summary treatments of histories that are much more detailed, much more widely respected, and rarely ever contradicted. This is becoming the accepted historical account of the early papacy. Catholics should be asked to make some case about what is actually lacking in this historical research that is to be doubted. (Especially given the clarity that now exists regarding the life of Christ and the testimony of the earliest church.)

Robert Eno, S.S. (Order of Sulpicians, whose mission is to teach Catholic seminarians), in his 1990 work, "The Rise of the Papacy," suggests that:

Such a view is becoming increasingly widespread. The evidence here, as with most subjects of this period, is fragmentary, and the issue can be debated in both ways. But the evidence available seems to point predominantly if not decisively in the direction of a collective leadership. Dogmatic a priori theses should not force us into presuming or requiring something that the evidence leans against. (pg. 26)
This historical information is evidence in addition to Scriptural "proofs" (Matthew 16, Luke 22, and John 21) that Roman Catholics provide as "evidence" for the papacy, as described by Robert Reymond, in his “A New Systematic Theology of the Christian Faith,” pg 818:

Rome’s exegesis of Matthew 16 and its historically developed claim to authoritative primacy in the Christian world simply cannot be demonstrated and sustained from Scripture itself. This claim is surely one of the great hoaxes foisted upon professing Christendom, upon which false base rests the whole papal sacerdotal system.


TOPICS: Charismatic Christian; Evangelical Christian; Other Christian; Religion & Politics
KEYWORDS: catholicbashing; catholicism; infallibilitypapcy
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To: editor-surveyor

So is your church “The Church Of What’s Happening Now” ?...just asking.


41 posted on 02/13/2015 7:24:07 PM PST by driftless2 (For long term happiness, learn how to play the accordion.)
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To: editor-surveyor

I don’t know. “The Whore And Her Daughters” was better than “Hannah And Her Sisters”....but not by much. And I spent too much on popcorn and soda.


42 posted on 02/13/2015 7:25:26 PM PST by driftless2 (For long term happiness, learn how to play the accordion.)
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To: DuncanWaring
By the way, what denomination do you belong to, and how is it more scripturally pure and authentic than the other tens of thousands of Protestant denominations?

Little do you poor guys know that your own religion isn't even consistent with your own doctors of the church, such as Saint Augustine.

43 posted on 02/13/2015 7:27:01 PM PST by Greetings_Puny_Humans (I mostly come out at night... mostly.)
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To: NRx; All
This sort of psuedohistorical claptrap should be embarrassing to anyone posting it. It is on the same intellectual and academic level as the evidence advanced in support of Holocaust denial and is tainted by a similar odor of bigotry.

You're comparing the observation that the Papacy was a later development (which is actually taught by YOUR own scholars and theologians) to holocaust denial?

The reaction from Catholics here to this thread is interesting. Someone else noted that the Catholics make oodles of threads promoting the supremacy of their church, yet when a thread that even some of your scholars would agree with is published, but which offends the poor "traditionalists," all of a sudden it's like a David Duke posting!

Readers should take note of this.

44 posted on 02/13/2015 7:29:31 PM PST by Greetings_Puny_Humans (I mostly come out at night... mostly.)
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To: DuncanWaring
>>So what’s the sign out in front of your church say?<<

Sign? Denomination? What is this talk? Denominations don't save Duncan. Belonging to some organization doesn't save Duncan. When someone believes on Christ alone for their salvation they become part of the called out, the ekklesia of Christ.

The Catholic Church has lied to people about a lot of things. One is the lineage of popes which is the subject of this article. This article isn't about me.

Here is some information about the history of the title of pope.

"The title was from the early 3rd century a general term used to refer to all bishops. From the 6th century, the title began to be used particularly of the Bishop of Rome, and in the late 11th century Pope Gregory VII issued a declaration that has been widely interpreted as stating this by then established Western convention. By the same 6th century, this was also the normal practice of the imperial chancery of Constantinople. ["Pope", Oxford Dictionary of the Christian Church, Oxford University Press, 2005, ISBN 978-0-19-280290-3]

See that? Not until the 6th century was it even used for the Bishop of Rome. History shows there wasn't even a single "church" in Rome until Constantine made Christianity the official religion. The history put forth by the Catholic Church today is fallacy. How about addressing that issue and proving all the honest researchers wrong. Got any documentation other than the propaganda from the Catholic Church?

45 posted on 02/13/2015 7:35:02 PM PST by CynicalBear (For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus)
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To: driftless2

.
No, its the congregation of Yeshua as it was when the apostles still lived.

The Way, the narrow path that few will find.
.


46 posted on 02/13/2015 7:50:26 PM PST by editor-surveyor (Freepers: Not as smart as I'd hoped they'd be)
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To: Wyrd bið ful aræd

I see you had to make do with a graphic of pagans attacking a Catholic. We wouldn’t have to stoop to such tactics, since there are plenty of illustrations of Catholics burning Protestants at the stake, back when they could get away with it.


47 posted on 02/13/2015 7:52:50 PM PST by Boogieman
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To: doc1019

I was under the impression we are in general agreement here, so either I have you confused with someone else or you didn’t understand my comment.

We have propagandists for Rome on Free Republic 24/7 yet Catholics whine and cry when their church is countered even a little bit. The discussions promoting the Roman religion probably outnumber all other religious threads at least 10-1 but Protestants/Evangelicals are the ones accused of fomenting discord. We shouldn’t be surprised. Rome officially declared war on biblical Christianity centuries ago.


48 posted on 02/13/2015 7:53:57 PM PST by .45 Long Colt
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To: DuncanWaring

Maybe start a thread about that, instead of trying to derail this one?


49 posted on 02/13/2015 7:54:34 PM PST by Boogieman
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To: NRx

The work of actual historians is now “pseudo-historical”?

As opposed to the conflicting Catholic traditions, for which there is a serious dearth of historical evidence to support?


50 posted on 02/13/2015 7:57:41 PM PST by Boogieman
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To: .45 Long Colt

Looking back on my response to your comment, I jumped too quickly and misunderstood your comment without putting into context. I apologize. I agree fully with the original poster and you.

Putting sad face of embarrassment on. :-)


51 posted on 02/13/2015 8:06:05 PM PST by doc1019 (Blue lives matter)
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To: RnMomof7

“Papacy built on pious fiction and forgery”

All we hear around here, is how Rome is built upon true history, Protestant history traces only to Luther, Calvin, etc. Truth is, as someone has posted on the RF recently, the Roman “house” is built upon a pebble (Peter), the true universal/catholic house is built upon bedrock - Jesus Christ and the word of God (Sola Scriptura).

It’s high time somebody start a series on the false foundation of Romanism. I can think of no subject needed more. RnMom, you are my hero.


52 posted on 02/13/2015 8:22:18 PM PST by sasportas
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To: DuncanWaring

wow


53 posted on 02/13/2015 8:40:05 PM PST by kvanbrunt2 (civil law: commanding what is right and prohibiting what is wrong Blackstone Commentaries I p44)
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To: Greetings_Puny_Humans
You're comparing the observation that the Papacy was a later development (which is actually taught by YOUR own scholars and theologians) to holocaust denial?

I think you are making an erroneous assumption in there. ;-)
54 posted on 02/13/2015 8:42:54 PM PST by NRx
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Comment #55 Removed by Moderator

To: CynicalBear
"I love it when the truth about history comes out."

Ha! Says the most historically-impaired person here. Got any more dirt about ancient Rome that conclusively proves(!) that the Catholic Church purposefully fostered illiteracy 600+ years later? Or perhaps you'd like to blow our minds with some ground-breaking info about those poor, persecuted Albigensians (who didn't extent outside a 20 mile radius of "some village"...Or something).

I stand ready to be amused.

56 posted on 02/13/2015 8:56:31 PM PST by Wyrd bið ful aræd ("We are condemned by men who are themselves condemned" -- The Most Reverend Marcel Lefebvre)
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To: RnMomof7
It doesn't take long to watch a Protestant twist words around.

The author, John Bugay, relies heavily on a summary written by Eamon Duffy. Duffy's first quote "Irenaeus thought that the Church had been 'founded and organised at Rome by the two glorious Apostles, Peter and Paul,' is correct.

"yet for Irenaeus the authority of the Church at Rome came from its foundation by two Apostles, not one, Peter and Paul, not Peter alone." This is incorrect. For a Catholic, the authority of the Church comes from God. Nowhere does Irenaeus ever say its authority comes from Peter and Paul. Martin Luther would be proud.

Reading on a littler further, leads to another whopper:
"The tradition that Peter and Paul had been put to death at the hands of Nero in Rome about the year ad 64 was universally accepted in the second century"

This lie is too funny because Irenaeus actually calls out Eamon Duffy as a heretic back in 189 AD:
"It is possible, then, for everyone in every church, who may wish to know the truth, to contemplate the tradition of the apostles which has been made known to us throughout the whole world. And we are in a position to enumerate those who were instituted bishops by the apostles and their successors down to our own times, men who neither knew nor taught anything like what these heretics rave about" (Against Heresies 3:3:1 [A.D. 189]).

This article continues on with more heresy. I especially like how opinion is stated in bold, since bold type must make it true.
57 posted on 02/13/2015 9:28:33 PM PST by hockeyCEO
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To: metmom

Amazing how they don’t address the content but instead have to “speak out loud” to reassure themselves.

Then again, I think each comment removed by the RM get “Purgatory points.”


58 posted on 02/13/2015 9:37:13 PM PST by redleghunter (He expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning Himself. Lk24)
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To: doc1019

Easy mistake. Nothing to worry about.


59 posted on 02/13/2015 9:38:40 PM PST by .45 Long Colt
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To: .45 Long Colt

TY


60 posted on 02/13/2015 9:45:53 PM PST by doc1019 (Blue lives matter)
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