Is There A Future For Ecumenism?

The Russian Orthodox Church-Department for External Church Relations ^ | 2/8/15 | Metropolitan Hilarion of Volokolamsk

[OneWingedShark]

> on our Heavenly Father’s Kingdom calendar, it is His 4th day..
> And when His 7th Day arrives, the world will be working when He says to rest and worship..

I think you are enslaved now.
You see, God doesn't care about the outward forms, but the inward heart.
This is why the Jewish Roots style movements are so wrongheaded — indeed Paul says of those trying to impose the Mosaic Law on the new Christian converts that he wishes they would castrate themselves! (It's a play on words; the word in-use there is "to cut off" and the mosaic law prohibits eunics are prohibited from the assembly — just as their attempt to impose the Mosiac Law was cutting off grace in Jesus Christ.)

(Gal 5:2-12 [CEB])
Look, I, Paul, am telling you that if you have yourselves circumcised, having Christ won’t help you. Again I swear to every man who has himself circumcised that he is required to do the whole Law. You people who are trying to be made righteous by the Law have been estranged from Christ. You have fallen away from grace! We eagerly wait for the hope of righteousness through the Spirit by faith. Being circumcised or not being circumcised doesn’t matter in Christ Jesus, but faith working through love does matter.

You were running well—who stopped you from obeying the truth? This line of reasoning doesn’t come from the one who calls you. A little yeast works through the whole lump of dough. I’m convinced about you in the Lord that you won’t think any other way. But the one who is confusing you will pay the penalty, whoever that may be. Brothers and sisters, if I’m still preaching circumcision, why am I still being harassed? In that case, the offense of the cross would be canceled. I wish that the ones who are upsetting you would castrate themselves!

More specific to your 4th day, vs 2nd day issue Jesus himself has something to say:

(Mark 2:23-27 [NRSV])
Pronouncement about the Sabbath
One sabbath he was going through the grainfields; and as they made their way his disciples began to pluck heads of grain. The Pharisees said to him, “Look, why are they doing what is not lawful on the sabbath?”

And he said to them, “Have you never read what David did when he and his companions were hungry and in need of food? He entered the house of God, when Abiathar was high priest, and ate the bread of the Presence, which it is not lawful for any but the priests to eat, and he gave some to his companions.”

Then he said to them, “The sabbath was made for humankind, and not humankind for the sabbath;

So it's not about a specific seventh day, it was about having a day in the week set aside; if it were otherwise than man would have been made for the sabbath and not sabbath for the man.

[OneWingedShark]

Those are good references, I too used Galatians (though Ch 5) in my reply.

[OneWingedShark]

> Yeah, that won’t work.

You know that, and I know that, but does the Catholic Church know it?

[CynicalBear]

>>Rome has conformed the world to their 7 day cycle..<<

And delchiante would have us conform to the weak and beggarly elements. Both wrong.

>>Just admit that that is one thing you don’t hate about Rome..<<

It's only one of the things I hate about Rome. Another is what you teach.

>>And I don’t think anyone should be sacrificing those drink and meat offerings that Paul was referencing in Ezekiel 45 for Colossians 2.<<

And I don't think anyone should go back under those weak and beggarly elements nullifying the grace of God.

>>Somebody better ask Isaiah why new moons and Sabbaths are around like He quotes in Isaiah 66..<<

Somebody needs to tell those who still teach the weak and beggarly elements that we are under the new covenant and not the old.

>>And why the messiah said for them to pray their flight wouldn’t happen on a sabbath..<<

Because that is for the Jews who will be living under the old laws after this age of grace ends and the last seven years promised to Israel commence.

>>Unless somebody believes the sabbath is made for the Jewish man only and not all man..<<

Well, well, well! You may be on to something there.

[delchiante]

And Daniel 7:25 says the enemy will change times and laws..

And revelation 13 details an unholy trinity that will break the 4 commandments and cause the world to break them too.

And those 4 commandments deal with worship..

Christians worship on Sundays , not because of Sola acriptura, but Rome..

Rome’s gospel of good Friday and Easter doesnt fly according to scripture. It is only relevant with their own calendar.

Rome calls the shots for those Jewish roots people too..

Satan can’t counterfeit the sun, moon and stars that He gave us to set time.. but Satan can have vessels like Rome ignore those when trying to tell us what ‘day it is’..

I now know why He says to remember the Sabbath Day.

Because the world is run by the enemy who wants people never to find it..
And when one finds the True Sabbath, the counterfeit world we live in makes a lot of sense..

His Sabbath has been lost.. Same with His New Moons..
But they will be restored.. His Kingdom prophecies say so..

And it may not be until His Kingdom comes.. but I am looking forward to it.. there will be no more tiw’s days.

Read revelation 13 and see if you can find the first 4 commandments being broken..

None of this calendar and changing of times and laws discussion means anything if people think worship isn’t a rather big theme in the book.

[delchiante]

The Sabbath isnt weak or beggarly.

It was established at Creation., For all..

A rest and a worship day. A memorial for His Creative and Redemptive Work..

Grace through faith

and Rome has created the Jesus you know..
Imagine those that have faith in that Jesus being deceived..

Kind of puts your arguing Rome over their Jesus in perspective..
A waste of time..

You accept the premise that they have faith in the True Messiah of Israel..

I don’t.. and it is because I have studied and proved ALL things, including the Roman Jesus..

I believe they have set up an anti Christ.. a Roman version.. with another gospel. Thanks to their calendar.. one that all, christendom accepts as genuine..
Even you..
And you prove it by arguing with catholics any chance you get..

I don’t see them as having any truth.. Just counterfeits designedto deceive and be passed off as genuine..

You haven’t come to that point in your journey yet..

And we are saved by grace, through faith.. my faith was in Rome’s counterfeit... and I have never been a RC..

I know who my faith is in and Rome (and frankly christendom today) has no authority or ownership of Him..

And you sadly, can’t say that...

But you are still thinking it is about days...

It is about Faith in Genuine Truth..

[NRx]

Pardon me for interrupting the usual round of Catholic bashing... but I wold like to encourage everyone to actually READ the linked lecture. There is quite a bit of significant stuff in there, most of which has little or no relation to the commentary I have read so far.

[Campion]

Today is the moon’s day according to Rome. All of the names of the days of the week to which you refer were put in place by pagans -- Romans and Anglo-Saxon -- without any reference, or interference by, a Pope of Rome.

The Catholic Church's official liturgical books, in Latin, refer to the days of the week (translated) as "Weekday I," "Weekday II", ... "Weekday V," "Sabbath," and "Lord's Day". No days names after moons, or Saturn, or Freya, or anything like that.

[marshmallow]

Balanced and intelligent, I thought (the lecture, that is).

The commentary above is pure entertainment.

[OneWingedShark]

And Daniel 7:25 says the enemy will change times and laws..
And revelation 13 details an unholy trinity that will break the 4 commandments and cause the world to break them too.

And I'm not saying the Bible doesn't say that — what I am saying is that Jesus said that the Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath; to elevate day 7 (using whatever numbering-system you wish) to primacy as you are is to make the Sabbath more important than man.

And those 4 commandments deal with worship..
Christians worship on Sundays , not because of Sola acriptura, but Rome..

And many Christians worship on Wednesdays, too. (And Monday, and Tuesday, and Thursday, and Friday, and Saturday.)
Here you prove my point though: dpes it matter which day(s) Christians worship on, or is the heart of the matter who they worship?

The first two-thirds of John 4 is the story of the Samaritan woman — and in her conversation with Jesus the subject of worship comes up:

The woman said to him, “Sir, I see that you are a prophet. Our ancestors worshiped on this mountain, but you [Jews] say that the place where people must worship is in Jerusalem.”

Jesus said to her, “Woman, believe me, the hour is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem. You worship what you do not know; we worship what we know, for salvation is from the Jews. But the hour is coming, and is now here, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for the Father seeks such as these to worship him. God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth.

So, if Jesus said that the location, which in Judaism was very important, was not an issue then why would the particular day?

Rome’s gospel of good Friday and Easter doesnt fly according to scripture. It is only relevant with their own calendar.

Um, Good Friday and Easter fall generally on the Passover — the Nicea council in 325 defined it as the first Sunday after the first full moon following the vernal equinox. The difference comes from using a solar calendar vs a lunar calendar. — It seems to me that your energies would be better spent doing good works rather than worrying about which calendar society uses.

None of this calendar and changing of times and laws discussion means anything if people think worship isn’t a rather big theme in the book.

If Jesus said that the true worshipers wouldn't worship [just] in Jerusalem, then why should the particular day matter?
Indeed, if you look at Revelation there's two points that strike your argument: (1) The angel declaring that there should be time no longer, and (2) that Heaven is described as [having] continual worship.

[CynicalBear]

Galatians 4:9 But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage? 10 Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years. 11 I fear for you, lest I have bestowed upon you labour in vain.

Colossians 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in food, or in drink, or in respect of a holy day, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:

You need to go find someone who doesn't know scripture to preach your bondage.

[arielguard]

For your encouragement...I read it. However, Catholics and Protestants beating each other of the head with theological clubs can be fun.

Is there a future for ecumenism? No. Not in my opinion as an Orthodox Christian, but then again...who am I?

[nascarnation]

LOL without the ongoing Catholic/Protestant skirmish threads, FR would be down on post count by 30% or so.

[RnMomof7]

The Sabbath isnt weak or beggarly.

The Sabbath is a type of Christ...we can rest from our work, because of Him

[NRx]

I share your reservations on the whole ecumenical thing. A lot of it is nonsense. But there are legitimate reasons for maintaining cordial ties with other religious confessions. At least with Jews and other Christians like the Roman Catholics. Liberal Protestantism is lost and should just be ignored.

[delchiante]

The catholic catechism has at least Friday, saturday and Sunday..
I haven’t searched for the others.. I would guess at least Thursday is in there..

Rome’s gospel according to Rome’s calendar is not big on Paul’s gospel of passover and first fruits..

And we can see in any year that easter and passover have no linkage..

[delchiante]

You keep using those two verses..

Collosians 2 was in reference to Ezekiel 45.. future offerings prophecy for the Millennium Kingdom..
Scripture says those offerings will be ordered again for the 1000 years..

The offerings have been done away with.. new moons, Sabbaths an feasts have not been eliminated..

The law of YHWH1 is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of YHWH is sure, making wise the simple. The statutes of YHWH are right, rejoicing the heart: the commandment of YHWH is pure, enlightening the eyes. The fear of YHWH is clean, enduring for ever: the judgments of YHWH are true and righteous altogether. More to be desired are they than gold, yea, than much fine gold: sweeter also than honey and the honeycomb. Moreover by them is thy servant warned: and in keeping of them there is great reward. (Psalm 19:7-11)

A sabbath commandment is weak and beggarly? A day He called a congregating weak and beggarly?

That is certainly one verse to stand on..

I will choose, here is the patience of the saints.. they that Keep the commandmemts of YHWH and the faith of Yahshua..

Pretty clear in the book of revelation..

You are on record of saying the sabbath is a jewish thing.. what other of His Ten Commandments are Jewish only?

What commandments of YHWH is referenced in revelation when He mentions the patience of the saints? Just the six that dont deal with worship of Our Heavenly Father?

Man, revelation 13 says the beast will cause people to break those first 4 commands..

Tread lightly.. I suggest you don’t answer those questions.. leave them be and go back to debatimg catholics..

They already have messed with those commandemts.. kindred spirits..

[CynicalBear]

Appealing to Revelation to make your case is worthless and shows a lack of understanding of prophesy. The “saints” in revelation are no longer part of this “age of grace”. That age has ended at that point as God is once again dealing with the Jews during the last seven years of the time promised them by Daniel’s prophesy.

[delchiante]

You and I differ on Daniel’s seven years

And we differ on Rome and her jesus so differences in the book of revelation isn’t surprising,.

But saying Rome hasn’t changed times and law is ignorant of history.. and scripture doesn’t detail a 5th kingdom before The Messiah’s return.
Rome is still around.. the papacy wasn’t called the seat of the Antichrist by the first reformers by accident..

Seat of the Antichrist.. the seat of the instead of’ Christ. The seat of the ‘substitute’ Christ.. the seat of the ‘counterfeit’ Christ..

Satan using rome to create a substitute/counterfeit savior?

Not sure christians would see that as a possibility.. they are taught that it will be one who stands opposed...and one that comes after they all leave..

What a sad state if Rome’s jesus is actually the antichrist.

I don’t doubt it after study., Rome’s lying mother points to Jesus after she is caught lying in her promises of her rosary..
No liar will point to truth,,

But your faith is in another Jesus., I would spend ,time preaching that Jesus instead of debating rome on her Jesus..