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To: CynicalBear; don-o
"...making statues that you use in worship."

"Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth."

For one thing, the Commandment can be taken as wide or narrow, depending on the theological interpretation. Some observant Jews to this day do not allow representational art or object of any kind. Nowhere, nohow, not in the cemetery, not at the Lincoln Memorial, no little painted birds, no plastic kitties and doggies for the kiddies, period.

Strict Amish people even forbid photographs. Should we say they are the only Christians who understand and observe the plain meaning of the passage cited above: no likeness of any thing? Period?

But their interpretation is a very late innovation: 17th century. In the very earliest physical evidence we have for both Christian worship spaces and burial places (catacombs, second century AD) and Christian house churches (such as at the Dura-Europos house church (LINK, and worth looking) and related article link you can see both mural art and bas-relief, a kind of sculpture. This is in the very earliest archaeological remains of a house church (sometime before 265 AD, when the area was razed by the Persians.)

This type of image-making progressed for another 6 or 7 centuries and was not even seriously questioned until iconoclasm controversy of the 8th century, when dissenters went around smashing all Christian art and demanding that it be outlawed. Emperor Leo III actually ordered all images removed from all churches. This was due to early Muslim influence on Christian faith and morals. Icons and murals were quickly reinstated subsequent to an Ecumenical Council (the Church against declaring its liberty against the Emperor!!) although statues, i.e. three-dimensional depictions, are not used in Orthodox Churches.

Incidentally, icons and murals are incensed, kissed and bowed down to in Orthodox AND Catholic liturgies. (Orthodox moreso, much to my sincere admiration.) And that's not all. Altars are incensed. Gospel books are incensed. Vestments are incensed. And the members of the congregation are incensed. You're not even exempt if you're dead. If you're being buried from a Catholic Church, your corpse and casket are incensed.

If you came to our Easter Vigil, I guarantee you'd be incensed!

But that only shows that in Orthodox and Catholic practice, not even bowing, kissing and wafting with incense are taken as signs of adoration properly so called, i.e. to God. That is, they are neither offered nor understood as signs of that supreme adoration which is due to the Holy Trinity alone. They are understood as signs of solemn honor, and/or the dedication or a person, place, or thing to a sacred use.

Mistaking this for idolatry is simply cultural solipsism.

The Catholic Church teaches that likenesses are kosher as long as the object is not worshiped. We see that Christ fulfilled this commandment, since He came and manifested in His human nature a pure image and likeness of God, as well as being a Divine Person, God. Jesus IS the Icon of God. This fulfillment by Christ (His Incarnation) changes everything and empowers His followers to be a New Creation, a Creation in which everything is in its proper order and the dedication of persons and objects does not turn into idolatry.

I call as my witnesses Martin Luther

.

John Calvin

.

Peter Waldo

.

and John Wycliffe

Have a nice day!

2,365 posted on 12/17/2014 10:51:21 AM PST by Mrs. Don-o (God created man in his own image, in the image of God created He him; male & female created He them.)
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To: Mrs. Don-o

Yeah, I’ve seen all the Catholic excuse making and justification. When you see someone bowing down to any of those images let me know.


2,374 posted on 12/17/2014 12:04:44 PM PST by CynicalBear (For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus)
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To: Mrs. Don-o; boatbums; metmom; CynicalBear

What is interesting about the statues you posted is that unlike catholics I don’t see people bowing to them nor praying to them to intercede.

God did say that making these idols/images would draw people to worship before them.....which was what the pagans did.

Additionally, regardless of what denomination these statues are affiliated with..I’ve never known any of them to urge praying or requesting it’s membership to ask prayer of these departed people to pray for them.


2,375 posted on 12/17/2014 12:06:56 PM PST by caww
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To: Mrs. Don-o
Have a nice day!

Uh...

Where are the pix of these statues with the folks BOWING in front of them?

2,381 posted on 12/17/2014 12:59:11 PM PST by Elsie ( Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Mrs. Don-o

Where are the candles?

Where are the prayers to them?

Where are the pictures of people bowing down before them?


2,418 posted on 12/17/2014 2:36:31 PM PST by metmom (...fixing our eyes on Jesus, the Author and Perfecter of our faith...)
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