Apologists Concerned About Rick Warren's Alignment With 'Holy Father'

Charisma News ^ | 12/3/14 | Mark Andrews

[marshmallow]

"Christian unity" is one of those terms that stir up a whole spectrum of—sometimes emotional—opinions.

On the one hand, we know that Jesus prayed to the Father concerning future believers "that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you" (John 17:21a, NIV).

On the other hand, charismatics know it is almost pointless to discuss the gifts of the Holy Spirit (1 Cor. 12, 14) with Baptists or most anyone else from a mainline denomination. And Protestants of just about any stripe get riled up when they hear Catholics talking about papal infallibility or their adoration of the Virgin Mary.

It's on this latter point that Rick Warren, senior pastor of Saddleback Church in Lake Forest, California, and successful author, has waded into a hornet's nest of controversy by telling a Catholic News Service interviewer that Protestants and Catholics "have far more in common than what divides us" and that Catholics do not "worship Mary like she's another god."

Regarding Warren's view that Catholics do not worship Mary, Matt Slick, writing on the website of the Christian Apologetics & Research Ministry, goes into great detail with material from Roman Catholic sources that say Mary is "the all holy one," is to be prayed to, worshipped, that she "brings us the gifts of eternal life" and she "made atonement for the sins of man."

If that's not putting her in the place of Christ as a god-like figure to be worshipped, then what is it?

"We believe in Trinity, the Bible, the resurrection, and that salvation is through Jesus Christ. These are the big issues," Warren says. "But the most important thing is if you love Jesus, we're on the same team."

To Warren's point about being on the same team, Slick.....

[Elsie]

If you can show me where Jesus said not to love anybody but Him, I will officially leave whatever religion it is you are.

HMMMmmm...

[Elsie]

If you can show me where Jesus said not to love anybody but Him...

Well; as long as you don't share any glory; it'll possibly be ok.

[Elsie]

Yes. I communicate with her almost daily.

You gotta LONG way to go!

[Elsie]

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/3237145/posts?page=1382#1382

[Mrs. Don-o]

"...making statues that you use in worship."

"Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth."

For one thing, the Commandment can be taken as wide or narrow, depending on the theological interpretation. Some observant Jews to this day do not allow representational art or object of any kind. Nowhere, nohow, not in the cemetery, not at the Lincoln Memorial, no little painted birds, no plastic kitties and doggies for the kiddies, period.

Strict Amish people even forbid photographs. Should we say they are the only Christians who understand and observe the plain meaning of the passage cited above: no likeness of any thing? Period?

But their interpretation is a very late innovation: 17th century. In the very earliest physical evidence we have for both Christian worship spaces and burial places (catacombs, second century AD) and Christian house churches (such as at the Dura-Europos house church (LINK, and worth looking) and related article link you can see both mural art and bas-relief, a kind of sculpture. This is in the very earliest archaeological remains of a house church (sometime before 265 AD, when the area was razed by the Persians.)

This type of image-making progressed for another 6 or 7 centuries and was not even seriously questioned until iconoclasm controversy of the 8th century, when dissenters went around smashing all Christian art and demanding that it be outlawed. Emperor Leo III actually ordered all images removed from all churches. This was due to early Muslim influence on Christian faith and morals. Icons and murals were quickly reinstated subsequent to an Ecumenical Council (the Church against declaring its liberty against the Emperor!!) although statues, i.e. three-dimensional depictions, are not used in Orthodox Churches.

Incidentally, icons and murals are incensed, kissed and bowed down to in Orthodox AND Catholic liturgies. (Orthodox moreso, much to my sincere admiration.) And that's not all. Altars are incensed. Gospel books are incensed. Vestments are incensed. And the members of the congregation are incensed. You're not even exempt if you're dead. If you're being buried from a Catholic Church, your corpse and casket are incensed.

If you came to our Easter Vigil, I guarantee you'd be incensed!

But that only shows that in Orthodox and Catholic practice, not even bowing, kissing and wafting with incense are taken as signs of adoration properly so called, i.e. to God. That is, they are neither offered nor understood as signs of that supreme adoration which is due to the Holy Trinity alone. They are understood as signs of solemn honor, and/or the dedication or a person, place, or thing to a sacred use.

Mistaking this for idolatry is simply cultural solipsism.

The Catholic Church teaches that likenesses are kosher as long as the object is not worshiped. We see that Christ fulfilled this commandment, since He came and manifested in His human nature a pure image and likeness of God, as well as being a Divine Person, God. Jesus IS the Icon of God. This fulfillment by Christ (His Incarnation) changes everything and empowers His followers to be a New Creation, a Creation in which everything is in its proper order and the dedication of persons and objects does not turn into idolatry.

I call as my witnesses Martin Luther

.

John Calvin

.

Peter Waldo

.

and John Wycliffe

Have a nice day!

[MamaB]

The Bble has everything we need to be saved and how to follow Jesus. If a man were on an island by himself with only a Bible, he would find instructions on how to be a Christian. It is so simple that a child understands it.

[Mrs. Don-o]

SO TRUE!

[Mrs. Don-o]

Are you referring to annalex’s two comments here? I, too, think they are admirable.

[Mrs. Don-o]

I have a high reverence for the Bible, snce its principal Author is the Holy Spirit and as such it teaches us what is needed for our salvation --- so we're in agreement on that.

However if the child were on an island by himself with the Bible, he could NOT understand it. There would be parts that he could grasp, but huge swaths which would be far beyond his grasp. That's assuming the child is literate.

Peter, Jesus' picked right-hand man, had a hard time understanding Paul (2 Peter 3:15-16 "Our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you, 1as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand")

...and the Ethiopian eunuch (a man of "great authority" --a court official of the Candace and presumably a highly literate man) had a hard time of it

Acts 8:30-31

So Philip ran to him,
and heard him reading the prophet Isaiah,
and said, “Do you understand what you are reading?”
And he said,
“How can I, unless someone guides me?”
And he asked Philip to come up and sit with him.

[vladimir998]

“Time for a Bible Mary vs Catholic Mary TRUCE!”

Truth you mean?

Well, why not discuss something else since the subject has to be changed to avoid having Protestants ask you any questions. Why not?

[vladimir998]

“It is so simple that a child understands it.”

Okay, let’s test your theory. Ask Elsie if there are any souls in Heaven right now. Or are all of the dead believers in Christ “asleep” until the resurrection.

I’m betting no Protestant will ask - especially any Protestant who actually disagrees with Elsie. The lock-step anti-Catholicism among FR Protestants must be maintained after all.

[MamaB]

I did not say a child was on an island. I said a man was but I did say the Bible can be understood by a child. I have seen elementary school kids quote verses and understand what they were quoting. Some are smarter than adults because they accept it in true faith.

[Mrs. Don-o]

Sorry, te child being on the island was my hypothetical, not yours. I should have made that clear.

The point was that children will understand parts of the Bible, but huge swathes of it they will not understand. Any adult who's honest will relate to that.

We were homeschoolers for 11 years and my boys memorized Proverbs and other simple single-verse excerpts on a regular basis. We discussed the meaning, too, since it wasn't always self-evident. It's an excellent thing to be immersed in Scripture.

But it is in no way self-explaining, self-defining or self-interpreting. It has always inspired myriad interpretations when in-DUH-viduals like myself try to puzzle it out on in our own little brain-boxes.

Provable every day free of charge on the Free Republic Religion Forum!

I prayed earnestly to the Holy Spirit for guidance, and the Holy Spirit directed me to the Church.

[CynicalBear]

Yeah, I’ve seen all the Catholic excuse making and justification. When you see someone bowing down to any of those images let me know.

[caww]

What is interesting about the statues you posted is that unlike catholics I don’t see people bowing to them nor praying to them to intercede.

God did say that making these idols/images would draw people to worship before them.....which was what the pagans did.

Additionally, regardless of what denomination these statues are affiliated with..I’ve never known any of them to urge praying or requesting it’s membership to ask prayer of these departed people to pray for them.

[CynicalBear]

>>.I’ve never known any of them to urge praying or requesting it’s membership to ask prayer of these departed people to pray for them.<<

A distinction totally lost on Catholics.

[caww]

....”A distinction totally lost on Catholics”....

Well there are often times catholics have difficulty with ‘distinctions’......primarily because they have to shuffle around scripture, twist it, and /or ignore it’s context in order for it to support their beliefs.....doing so looses any distinctions God has clearly expressed in His word... so they end up blind to His truth....and that’s because it’s not about His truth as he wants it to be known that they seek...it’s about using scripture to support the dogma and beliefs of the RCC.

[caww]

God's Word will rest in the heart of a child no matter if he understands it's full meaning or not...we feed babes milk not becuase they understand it's meaning but because they need it to live.

[Mrs. Don-o]

We already discussed bowing. Please review.

[Syncro]

Baaaaaaaa Humbug!