Apologists Concerned About Rick Warren's Alignment With 'Holy Father'

Charisma News ^ | 12/3/14 | Mark Andrews

[marshmallow]

"Christian unity" is one of those terms that stir up a whole spectrum of—sometimes emotional—opinions.

On the one hand, we know that Jesus prayed to the Father concerning future believers "that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you" (John 17:21a, NIV).

On the other hand, charismatics know it is almost pointless to discuss the gifts of the Holy Spirit (1 Cor. 12, 14) with Baptists or most anyone else from a mainline denomination. And Protestants of just about any stripe get riled up when they hear Catholics talking about papal infallibility or their adoration of the Virgin Mary.

It's on this latter point that Rick Warren, senior pastor of Saddleback Church in Lake Forest, California, and successful author, has waded into a hornet's nest of controversy by telling a Catholic News Service interviewer that Protestants and Catholics "have far more in common than what divides us" and that Catholics do not "worship Mary like she's another god."

Regarding Warren's view that Catholics do not worship Mary, Matt Slick, writing on the website of the Christian Apologetics & Research Ministry, goes into great detail with material from Roman Catholic sources that say Mary is "the all holy one," is to be prayed to, worshipped, that she "brings us the gifts of eternal life" and she "made atonement for the sins of man."

If that's not putting her in the place of Christ as a god-like figure to be worshipped, then what is it?

"We believe in Trinity, the Bible, the resurrection, and that salvation is through Jesus Christ. These are the big issues," Warren says. "But the most important thing is if you love Jesus, we're on the same team."

To Warren's point about being on the same team, Slick.....

[Elsie]

You are in graver danger if you attribute miracles of the Holy Spirit to demons.

And; it's YOUR chosen religion that DETERMINES that a 'miracle is produced by the H.S.; right?

[Elsie]

Are you accusing me of blasphemy ?

Are you saying that we cannot pray to ourselves?Why do you limit GOD in this fashion?

Shame!

Who taught you this?

[Elsie]

 

If that is true you will confess blessed Mary is the mother of God with us, which testifies to us from Isaiah and Matthew. Do you confess or deny it ?

 

 

IF you can produce the testimony EVIDENCE you claim to have for these fellas; perhaps THEN I will be able answer your inquistorial toned question.

[Elsie]

Of course, since it is falsely presupposed that one needs the assuredly infallible magisterium to correctly know what is of God.

Once again you PROTS show you know NOTHING about how the Only True Church works!

The Magi are NOT infallible; only the things they magestically pronounce are!!

They do NOT need to ALL vote the same way; only a MAJORITY is needed to speak for GOD!!!

--Catholic_Wannabe_Dude(I'm on my way to being CORRECTLY Catechized! HAIL MARY~~~~~~~)

[Elsie]

Perhaps you need to read others' comments more closely?

Why?

Have you EVER seen us get chastised on FR for reading your mind as to what you SHOULD have said??

--C_W_D(Workin' on my lessons...)

[Elsie]

The question, then, is how one can know the difference.

SIMPLE!!!

 Doctrine and Covenants       Section 129

 

Instructions given by Joseph Smith the Prophet, at Nauvoo, Illinois, 9 February 1843, making known three grand keys by which the correct nature of ministering angels and spirits may be distinguished (see History of the Church, 5:267).

1–3, There are both resurrected and spirit bodies in heaven; 4–9, Keys are given whereby messengers from beyond the veil may be identified.
1 There are two kinds of beings in heaven, namely: Angels, who are resurrected personages, having bodies of flesh and bones;
2 For instance, Jesus said: Handle me and see, for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.
3 Secondly: the spirits of just men made perfect, they who are not resurrected, but inherit the same glory.
4 When a messenger comes saying he has a message from God, offer him your hand and request him to shake hands with you.
5 If he be an angel he will do so, and you will feel his hand.
6 If he be the spirit of a just man made perfect he will come in his glory; for that is the only way he can appear;
7 Ask him to shake hands with you, but he will not move, because it is contrary to the order of heaven for a just man to deceive; but he will still deliver his message.
8 If it be the devil as an angel of light, when you ask him to shake hands he will offer you his hand, and you will not feel anything; you may therefore detect him.
9 These are three grand keys whereby you may know whether any administration is from God.

       Joseph Smith

[Elsie]

YOU’D better listen to the CHURCH; Buster!!!

[Mrs. Don-o]

>She would, in this context, be the Bride of the Holy Spirit.<<
... NO, Israel is the bride of the Father

YES, Israel is imaged as the bride of the Father in the context of Hosea, but in the context of Revelation the bride is Mary, the woman who had a child (the Messiah) via the overshadowing of the Holy Spirit, and is, in that sense, His (the Spirit's) Bride.<<

"Nope, that is made up by the Catholic Church."

Yep, it's right there in the Bible.

If the child in Rev. 12 is Jesus Christ, well, Mary's his mom. We all know that, actually.

[Mrs. Don-o]

So, does that include creches and pixils?

[nicmarlo]

There is a difference between questions asked because someone seeks an answer and someone who seeks an argument. There are honest questions, and there are dishonest questions.

There are honest misunderstandings and intentional twisting of Scriptures to fit someone’s preferences.

There are those who desire to pluck partial sentences from Scripture, as opposed to looking at the entirety of what the Scriptures say on a topic, and from the perversion base their entire theology and self-righteous insistence on the perversion as being “truth.”

You seek the perversion and tp argue, and therefore I have no time for dishonest questions or intentional perversions where I would otherwise take all day to answer honest questions and genuine misunderstandings. I have no patience for dishonesty.

I know your only design to create arguments, and knew exactly where you were coning from after your second or third post. You are a dishonest questioner and willfully perverted in your insistence in perverting the intent of the Scriptures.

Therefore, engaging in any topic of Scripture with you is like casting pearls before swine.

Period.

[nicmarlo]

Yes, but I also enjoy reading and sharing C S Lewis’ books! ;)

[Syncro]

Thanks!

What a great God to forgive and not condemn

[Syncro]

No trick. There was a video. I posted a link. There was no trick. According to your logic, unless someone describes the exact content of what lies at the end of link, that person is trying to trick you. That’s sounds crazy.

It is trickery to try to get a poster to click on a video link with no indication of what the content is.

Claiming a question can be "untrue" when it is just asking is absurd.

I admitted I tricked you into doing what you should have done in the beginning, say what the video was about.

You tried to trick me, so I tricked you back.

As you can see in the last post to which I replied, God does not condemn me. Why do you?

Doesn't matter to me except for the comfort of your soul. You know, admitting what a person does so they don't have to carry it around.

For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light--Matt 11:30

[Syncro]

Amen!

Catholicism is very through in their indoctrination, the penalties for not accepting all their doctrine are quite severe.

[Kandy Atz]

Nope. I simply follow the truths Christ handed to us. James 2:24 makes it plain we are not saved by faith alone. We are saved by grace which we receive through faith and works.

All of the Bible is written for the Church, but not all of it is written TO or ABOUT the Church. This is why religion and theologians of all stripes have often ended up in the ditch, attempting to square what was written for Israel alone, with what is written to the Body of Christ. There is NO conflict, if you rightly divide the Word. If you allow Scripture to interpret Scripture, and yield to the guidance of the Holy Spirit, God will reveal the Truth to any child of God.

The Book of James has caused some confusion among the religious. Before attempting to square anything he writes with what is written TO the Body of Christ, its important to understand that many Jewish believers, while accepting Jesus as the Messiah, were still "zealous of the Law." (Acts 21:20) The Law has no place in the Body of Christ, where we are dead to the Law and religious bondage of ALL types. Judaizers were a constant threat as Paul often wrote to correct their negative influence. With that in mind, to WHOM does James address his letter? James is writing to the "twelve tribes." What do the 12 tribes have to do with the Body of Christ - where there is neither Jew or Greek, male or female, etc.? (Galatians 3:28) AGAIN, this is written FOR the Church, but not TO it. You must weigh everything in James against Paul's revelation of the Spiritual Body of Christ. What belongs to Israel, belongs to Israel. What belongs to the nations/Gentiles, belongs to them. What belongs to the Body of Christ, belongs to me - and those in the family of God.

James 1:1 (KJV) - James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.

If you fail to rightly divide the Word, especially as to whom it is written, and who its about, you create all sorts of confusion. If I had a nickle for every mixed up sermon, blog, lecture, or book that I have heard or read on Revelation these last 50 years, I would be very wealthy. So many folks have worked overtime to force the Body of Christ where it does not belong. The same goes when you attempt to undermine what is specifically written TO, FOR, and ABOUT the Church, with letters written to the Jewish dispersion. Don't dismiss them, just recognize their purpose, and allow the Holy Spirit to reveal what belongs to you.

There is much for a Believer to glean from James. His teaching on the tongue/words - outstanding and very important for the Body of Christ. Asking in faith and not doubting, so needed in the Church these days. How temptation leads to sin - still relevant for Believers. However, anything which contradicts the revelation God gave Paul for the Body of Christ needs to be prayerfully examined. Paul was specifically called to go to the Gentiles. This was after Israel had rejected their King. (Acts 28:23-31) The apostles called to minister to the Jews did not always understand Paul's revelation. (Galatians 2, 2 Peter 3:15-18) You can take the people out of religion, but its so much harder to get the religion out of people.

The Law was a tutor (for the Jews). Israel rejected their King, postponing prophetic fulfillment of the (temporal) Kingdom of Heaven until the End Times. God then revealed something new through Paul, a spiritual body of called out ones made up of both Jews and Gentiles - Spiritually baptized into one body without division, with Jesus as the Head. By faith in Jesus, Believers become children of God, joint-heirs with Jesus, and enter a personal relationship with our Heavenly Father - relationship, not religion. (Romans 8)

Colossians 3:11 (AMP)

11 [In this new creation all distinctions vanish.] There is no room for and there can be neither Greek nor Jew, circumcised nor uncircumcised, [nor difference between nations whether alien] barbarians or Scythians [who are the most savage of all], nor slave or free man; but Christ is all and in all [everything and everywhere, to all men, without distinction of person].

Galatians 3:23-29 (AMP)

23 Now before the faith came, we were perpetually guarded under the Law, kept in custody in preparation for the faith that was destined to be revealed (unveiled, disclosed), 24 So that the Law served [to us Jews] as our trainer [our guardian, our guide to Christ, to lead us] until Christ [came], that we might be justified (declared righteous, put in right standing with God) by and through faith. 25 But now that the faith has come, we are no longer under a trainer (the guardian of our childhood). 26 For in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God through faith. 27 For as many [of you] as were baptized into Christ [into a spiritual union and communion with Christ, the Anointed One, the Messiah] have put on (clothed yourselves with) Christ. 28 There is [now no distinction] neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is not male and female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if you belong to Christ [are in Him Who is Abraham's Seed], then you are Abraham's offspring and [spiritual] heirs according to promise.

The plan of God for the Church (Body of Christ in this dispensation of Grace) was hidden until revealed to Paul by revelation of the Holy Spirit. This can be found in Paul's later letters, especially Ephesians and Colossians, although there is a brief mention at the end of Romans. (Romans 16:25-27) It was never hidden that the Gentiles would be Blessed - Genesis 12:3 (KJV) - And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed. What was hidden was the creation of one spiritual body, neither Jew or Gentile, called out from the world to be joint-heirs of Jesus and children of God. Once this Truth is understood, everything else starts to fall into place.

Galatians 1:1-2 (AMP)

1 PAUL, AN apostle—[special messenger appointed and commissioned and sent out] not from [any body of] men nor by or through any man, but by and through Jesus Christ (the Messiah) and God the Father, Who raised Him from among the dead— 2 And all the brethren who are with me, to the churches of Galatia:

Galatians 1:11-12 (AMP)

11 For I want you to know, brethren, that the Gospel which was proclaimed and made known by me is not man's gospel [a human invention, according to or patterned after any human standard]. 12 For indeed I did not receive it from man, nor was I taught it, but [it came to me] through a [direct] revelation [given] by Jesus Christ (the Messiah).

Ephesians 3:1-9 (AMP)

1 FOR THIS reason [because I preached that you are thus built up together], I, Paul, [am] the prisoner of Jesus the Christ for the sake and on behalf of you Gentiles— 2 Assuming that you have heard of the stewardship of God's grace (His unmerited favor) that was entrusted to me [to dispense to you] for your benefit, 3 [And] that the mystery (secret) was made known to me and I was allowed to comprehend it by direct revelation, as I already briefly wrote you. 4 When you read this you can understand my insight into the mystery of Christ. 5 [This mystery] was never disclosed to human beings in past generations as it has now been revealed to His holy apostles (consecrated messengers) and prophets by the [Holy] Spirit. 6 [It is this:] that the Gentiles are now to be fellow heirs [with the Jews], members of the same body and joint partakers [sharing] in the same divine promise in Christ through [their acceptance of] the glad tidings (the Gospel). 7 Of this [Gospel] I was made a minister according to the gift of God's free grace (undeserved favor) which was bestowed on me by the exercise (the working in all its effectiveness) of His power. 8 To me, though I am the very least of all the saints (God's consecrated people), this grace (favor, privilege) was granted and graciously entrusted: to proclaim to the Gentiles the unending (boundless, fathomless, incalculable, and exhaustless) riches of Christ [wealth which no human being could have searched out], 9 Also to enlighten all men and make plain to them what is the plan [regarding the Gentiles and providing for the salvation of all men] of the mystery kept hidden through the ages and concealed until now in [the mind of] God Who created all things by Christ Jesus.

Colossians 1:25-29 (AMP)

25 In it I became a minister in accordance with the divine stewardship which was entrusted to me for you [as its object and for your benefit], to make the Word of God fully known [among you]— 26 The mystery of which was hidden for ages and generations [from angels and men], but is now revealed to His holy people (the saints), 27 To whom God was pleased to make known how great for the Gentiles are the riches of the glory of this mystery, which is Christ within and among you, the Hope of [realizing the] glory. 28 Him we preach and proclaim, warning and admonishing everyone and instructing everyone in all wisdom (comprehensive insight into the ways and purposes of God), that we may present every person mature (full-grown, fully initiated, complete, and perfect) in Christ (the Anointed One). 29 For this I labor [unto weariness], striving with all the superhuman energy which He so mightily enkindles and works within me.

If you really want to be blown away by God's Love and Grace, study out the correct meaning of "foundation of the world" in the passage below. God picked you long before you had any chance to sin, or even DO any good works. Long before Adam and Eve sinned, or even before Satan rebelled, God chose YOU to be in His family. Its not about religion, its ALL about relationship in this current dispensation of Grace. (Ephesians 3:2 - KJV) Once you are in the family, God places you in the Body where HE WANTS, and gives you the Anointing, Grace, and the desire to do HIS WILL according to HIS PLAN. Its not WORK, its a Blessing - to both you and the world. Its doing what God made you and empowers you to do. There is NO WAY to earn His love, because HE IS LOVE! (Psalm 37:3-7, John 15:1-8, 1 Corinthians 12, 1 John 4:8)

Ephesians 1:1-4 (AMP)

1 PAUL, AN apostle (special messenger) of Christ Jesus (the Messiah), by the divine will (the purpose and the choice of God) to the saints (the consecrated, set-apart ones) at Ephesus who are also faithful and loyal and steadfast in Christ Jesus: 2 May grace (God's unmerited favor) and spiritual peace [which means peace with God and harmony, unity, and undisturbedness] be yours from God our Father and from the Lord Jesus Christ. 3 May blessing (praise, laudation, and eulogy) be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ (the Messiah) Who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual (given by the Holy Spirit) blessing in the heavenly realm! 4 Even as [in His love] He chose us [actually picked us out for Himself as His own] in Christ before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy (consecrated and set apart for Him) and blameless in His sight, even above reproach, before Him in love.

And a repost of metmom's last verse. For Believers, this is their PRESENT REALITY, if they believe God's Word. If this doesn't bring joy to your heart, and praise to your lips, you might be spiritually dead. Once this revelation sinks into your spirit, and you renew your mind with the Word, tossing aside all the religious hooey that's been stored there, you will realize how wonderful your Heavenly Father really is. At that point all you can honestly say is, THANK YOU FATHER! And then enjoy His presence.

Ephesians 2:1-9 (AMP)

1 AND YOU [He made alive], when you were dead (slain) by [your] trespasses and sins

2 In which at one time you walked [habitually]. You were following the course and fashion of this world [were under the sway of the tendency of this present age], following the prince of the power of the air. [You were obedient to and under the control of] the [demon] spirit that still constantly works in the sons of disobedience [the careless, the rebellious, and the unbelieving, who go against the purposes of God].

3 Among these we as well as you once lived and conducted ourselves in the passions of our flesh [our behavior governed by our corrupt and sensual nature], obeying the impulses of the flesh and the thoughts of the mind [our cravings dictated by our senses and our dark imaginings]. We were then by nature children of [God's] wrath and heirs of [His] indignation, like the rest of mankind.

4 But God—so rich is He in His mercy! Because of and in order to satisfy the great and wonderful and intense love with which He loved us,

5 Even when we were dead (slain) by [our own] shortcomings and trespasses, He made us alive together in fellowship and in union with Christ; [He gave us the very life of Christ Himself, the same new life with which He quickened Him, for] it is by grace (His favor and mercy which you did not deserve) that you are saved (delivered from judgment and made partakers of Christ's salvation).

6 And He raised us up together with Him and made us sit down together [giving us joint seating with Him] in the heavenly sphere [by virtue of our being] in Christ Jesus (the Messiah, the Anointed One).

7 He did this that He might clearly demonstrate through the ages to come the immeasurable (limitless, surpassing) riches of His free grace (His unmerited favor) in [His] kindness and goodness of heart toward us in Christ Jesus.

8 For it is by free grace (God's unmerited favor) that you are saved (delivered from judgment and made partakers of Christ's salvation) through [your] faith. And this [salvation] is not of yourselves [of your own doing, it came not through your own striving], but it is the gift of God;

9 Not because of works [not the fulfillment of the Law's demands], lest any man should boast. [It is not the result of what anyone can possibly do, so no one can pride himself in it or take glory to himself.]

[nicmarlo]

I am aware and am glad to have escaped from its clutches, thanks be to God.

[Resettozero]

May all FReepers please take time to read this post #2135 with understanding and not doubting.

Thank you. Very much.

[af_vet_1981]

It is equally destructive to ascribe acts of the adversary to God, don't you think? The question, then, is how one can know the difference.

1. No
2. By their fruit

Matthew has:
• 22Then was brought unto him one possessed with a devil, blind, and dumb: and he healed him, insomuch that the blind and dumb both spake and saw. 23And all the people were amazed, and said, Is not this the son of David? 24But when the Pharisees heard it, they said, This fellow doth not cast out devils, but by Beelzebub the prince of the devils. 25And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand: 26And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand? 27And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your children cast them out? therefore they shall be your judges. 28But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you. 29Or else how can one enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he first bind the strong man? and then he will spoil his house. 30He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad. 31Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men. 32And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.
• 15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. 16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? 17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. 19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. 20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them. 21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. 24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: 25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock. 26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: 27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.

[af_vet_1981]

I never have denied it. Perhaps you need to read others' comments more closely?

Read my comment more closely. I did not write that you denied it. I wrote:

" If that is true you will confess blessed Mary is the mother of God with us, which testifies to us from Isaiah and Matthew. Do you confess or deny it ? "

You have just denied ever denying that Mary is the mother of God with us. Is that equivalent to you confessing Mary is the mother of God with us ?

[Resettozero]

You have just denied ever denying that Mary is the mother of God with us. Is that equivalent to you confessing Mary is the mother of God with us ?

The Return of the Inquisition...?