The Return of the Prayer to St. Michael

Crisis Magazinei ^ | December 9, 2014 | JOE BISSONNETTE

[boatbums]

Why do you "have to" demonstrate anywhere in Scripture that we are to pray to angels?

Nobody says you have to but I would think if you want to be obedient to God you would try to learn what He commands us concerning prayers, like who to pray TO, what we pray for, why we pray, who is in control of answering our prayers, etc. If we are not given ANY commands from God to use His created beings - no matter how powerful they are - as "carriers" of our prayers before Him, then shouldn't that be enough reason?

In Revelation 22, we are told of the Apostle John who, in awe, bowed down to worship an angel:

I, John, am the one who heard and saw these things. And when I heard and saw, I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who showed me these things. But he said to me, "Do not do that. I am a fellow servant of yours and of your brethren the prophets and of those who heed the words of this book. Worship God." (Rev. 22:8-9)

We are told in the gospel of Luke that a man named Zacharias (the father of John the Baptist) was visited by an angel of the Lord to tell him that God had heard his and his wife Elizabeth's prayers for a child and that their prayers would be answered, yes. But neither of them prayed TO the angel for a child. Here is what the angel Gabriel told him:

But the angel said to him, "Don't be afraid, Zacharias, because your request has been heard, and your wife, Elizabeth, will bear you a son, and you shall call his name John. Zacharias said to the angel, "How can I be sure of this? For I am an old man, and my wife is well advanced in years. "The angel answered him, "I am Gabriel, who stands in the presence of God. I was sent to speak to you, and to bring you this good news." (Luke 2:13,18,19)

Again, the angel was a messenger if God, sent from God, to tell of an answered prayer. That same angel then went to Mary to announce she would bear the Messiah. Mary hadn't even prayed for this as she was surprised and puzzled by Gabriel's message. In fact, angels are depicted as messengers of God, sent FROM God, to do what He has commanded them to do. There isn't anywhere in Scripture that we are told to pray TO angels. We pray directly to God, who has mercifully and gracefully allowed us into the throne room of grace through Jesus Christ, our ONLY mediator.

I understand that some people think they can pray to angels just like they pray to people who have died already, but we should realize that this was not something God ever commanded us to do. In fact, in many places God commands us to NOT try to contact the dead for the living. Praying to finite created beings implies they have omniscience and omnipresence so that they can hear every prayer from every person at the same time and have the power to answer those prayers. But only God has that kind of power. His glory He will not share with another.

Finally, in Colossians 2, we are told:

Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ. Do not let anyone who delights in false humility and the worship of angels disqualify you. Such a person also goes into great detail about what they have seen; they are puffed up with idle notions by their unspiritual mind. They have lost connection with the head, from whom the whole body, supported and held together by its ligaments and sinews, grows as God causes it to grow.

Since you died with Christ to the elemental spiritual forces of this world, why, as though you still belonged to the world, do you submit to its rules: “Do not handle! Do not taste! Do not touch!”? These rules, which have to do with things that are all destined to perish with use, are based on merely human commands and teachings. Such regulations indeed have an appearance of wisdom, with their self-imposed worship, their false humility and their harsh treatment of the body, but they lack any value in restraining sensual indulgence. (Col. 2:16-23)

[Grateful2God]

Revelation, Chapter 7:8 - And the four living creatures had each of them six wings; and round about and within they are full of eyes.
And they rested not day and night, saying: Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, who was, and who is, and who is to come.

[Grateful2God]

Thanks so much! I haven’t gotten the chance to try it yet... I’m looking forward to being able to use it, although I admit to being a tad intimidated at trying to remember all those symbols!

[Grateful2God]

Very well-said!

[NYer]

I haven’t gotten the chance to try it yet... I’m looking forward to being able to use it, although I admit to being a tad intimidated at trying to remember all those symbols!

It truly is quite simple. Looking at the above example, I simply copied your text and placed it between html markers as follows (substitute the less than and greater than symbols for the braces) (i) text (/i), followed by (p) for new paragraph. It's that simple. Want to bold text, use (b) text (/b) ... done! Since this is a live thread, I cannot demonstrate with the less than and greater than symbol and have substituted the braces. You can practice all of these techniques in the HTML sandbox without it impacting a live thread.

[Campion]

She (Bathsheba) was being a mediator for Adonijah, Solomon’s half-brother. That turned out REAL bad for Adonijah.

Only because of *what* Adonijah was asking for, not *how* he did the asking, or *who* he had doing the asking for him.

[Grateful2God]

Thank you for the link, I look forward to going there!
The prayers I found last night were eloquent, poetic, with so much detail and contemplation involved. The Akathist of Thanksgiving is particularly lovely: I’ve been going through a lot of changes in my life, happy and sad, and it was a beautiful reminder of God’s goodness, gifts, wisdom, and how important it is to praise and thank Him always!
God bless you, and thanks again!

[boatbums]

In addition to your well reasoned comments, it is often ignored that some collections of the Septuagint contained several OTHER writings that were EXCLUDED from the Roman Catholic "canon". There were fifteen total extra-biblical books rather than the seven that are now disputed. These are explained here:

Some scripture of ancient origin are found in the Septuagint but are not present in the Hebrew. These additional books are Tobit, Judith, Wisdom of Solomon, Wisdom of Jesus son of Sirach, Baruch, Letter of Jeremiah (which later became chapter 6 of Baruch in the Vulgate), additions to Daniel (The Prayer of Azarias, the Song of the Three Children, Susanna and Bel and the Dragon), additions to Esther, 1 Maccabees, 2 Maccabees, 3 Maccabees, 4 Maccabees, 1 Esdras, Odes, including the Prayer of Manasseh, the Psalms of Solomon, and Psalm 151. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Septuagint)

Because of these facts, we know that simply appealing to a book's presence in the Septuagint, doesn't automatically mean they are canonical. This won't stop those who have to defend their religion's pronouncements from asserting things they have repeatedly been shown are wrong, but at least we are educating those who care about the truth.

[roamer_1]

Tobit is part of the Septuagint used by Jesus and his Apostles.

False.

[NYer]

In fact, in many places God commands us to NOT try to contact the dead for the living. Praying to finite created beings implies they have omniscience and omnipresence so that they can hear every prayer from every person at the same time and have the power to answer those prayers. But only God has that kind of power. His glory He will not share with another.

Once again .. the saints are alive, not dead. Just as we ask our friends to pray for us, so too, we have friends in heaven who can pray for us as well. If, as you suggest, we should go directly to God, why are there daily threads on FR asking us to pray for someone? Let me cite the recent example of a Baptist man who worked as a janitor in a Catholic convent of the Sisters of Providence of St. Mary of the Woods in Indiana founded by Mother Theodore Guerin. Here's the background information:

After a grueling 1840 voyage across the ocean to the U.S. from France, Guerin put down roots in a desolate, thick wood near Terre Haute, Ind. Fighting discrimination and doubt, she established a thriving community of nuns and the oldest Catholic liberal arts college for women in the United States--St. Mary of the Woods College.

Accounts of her life describe Guerin as a determined woman who faced countless battles in building her congregation, the college, schools, orphanages and numerous ministries for the poor.

A biographer, Penny Blaker Mitchell, described her as an "ordinary woman who was able to attain extraordinary accomplishments because she loved and trusted God and worked with God to share hope, love and mercy with the people of her day."

The sisters felt she was a candidate for sainthood and asked others to pray for her. To become a saint, the church requires two verifiable miracles. Guerin's first occurred in 1908, when the sister who wrote her first biography, Sister Mary Theodosia Mug, claimed Guerin had cured her cancer.

The Sisters of Providence got their most convincing 2nd case in 2000. It came from a surprising, close-to-home source--the director of facilities management for the Sisters of Providence.

Phil McCord, now 59, was struggling with whether he should undergo a cornea transplant to restore vision in his right eye. On a whim, McCord, who is not Catholic, decided to step inside a chapel at St. Mary of the Woods one day.

As he settled in the pew, McCord asked Guerin not for a cure, but for peace. "By the way, this is your house and I'm your servant," he recalls saying. "... If you have any influence with God, I'd appreciate it."

The next day, his eye immediately felt better. Two weeks later, the same doctor who had recommended a transplant said he no longer needed it. A man who had worn glasses since he was 7 now had perfect eyesight.

Over the next several years, McCord participated in hearings and evidence collection. A panel of witnesses, including two doctors with no connection to McCord, declared there was no medical explanation for his cure.

"I'm a civil engineer. I deal with things I can touch and sense in the real world and I try to find rational, scientific explanations for things," McCord said. "This is just outside my experience."

McCord, raised a Baptist, isn't looking to convert, but he has great respect for what Guerin accomplished and what he says she did for him.

"She was a woman of great courage and as her story becomes known, I just hope that message will come out," McCord said. "You know, hope is possible."

Providence Sister Denise Wilkinson, general superior of the Sisters of Providence of Saint Mary-of-the-Woods, Philip McCord and Providence Sister Marie Kevin Tighe offer gifts to Pope Benedict XVI during the canonization liturgy for four saints, including Blessed Mother Theodore Guérin, on Oct. 15, 2006, at St. Peter’s Square in Rome. (Photo by Kelly Wilkinson/The Indianapolis Star)

Who cured Phil McCord? GOD

Phil availed himself of a living saint to place his request before God and God responded. Because he is the only God-man and the Mediator of the New Covenant, Jesus is the only mediator between man and God (1 Tim. 2:5), but this in no way means we cannot or should not ask our fellow Christians to pray with us and for us (1 Tim. 2:1–4). In particular, we should ask the intercession of those Christians in heaven, who have already had their sanctification completed, for "the prayer of a righteous man has great power in its effects" (Jas. 5:16).

[Grateful2God]

It truly is quite simple.

I did it!

Gonna go play in the Sandbox! Thank you!

[defconw]

I Believe!

[NYer]

The prayers I found last night were eloquent, poetic, with so much detail and contemplation involved.

As you have probably understood, my good friend, Kolokotronis, is Greek Orthodox but is very familiar with the RC Church where he once served as an altar boy. We both share a love for the Eastern Church. I am Roman Catholic but practice my faith in a Maronite (Eastern) Catholic Church, in full communion with Rome.

Although it is not widely known in our Western world, the Catholic Church is actually a communion of Churches. According to the Constitution on the Church of the Second Vatican Council, Lumen Gentium, the Catholic Church is understood to be "a corporate body of Churches," united with the Pope of Rome, who serves as the guardian of unity (LG, no. 23). At present there are 22 Churches that comprise the Catholic Church. The new Code of Canon Law, promulgated by Pope John Paul II, uses the phrase "autonomous ritual Churches" to describe these various Churches (canon 112). Each Church has its own hierarchy, spirituality, and theological perspective. Because of the particularities of history, there is only one Western Catholic Church, while there are 21 Eastern Catholic Churches. The Western Church, known officially as the Latin Church, is the largest of the Catholic Churches. It is immediately subject to the Roman Pontiff as Patriarch of the West. The Eastern Catholic Churches are each led by a Patriarch, Major Archbishop, or Metropolitan, who governs their Church together with a synod of bishops. Through the Congregation for Oriental Churches, the Roman Pontiff works to assure the health and well-being of the Eastern Catholic Churches.

While this diversity within the one Catholic Church can appear confusing at first, it in no way compromises the Church's unity. In a certain sense, it is a reflection of the mystery of the Trinity. Just as God is three Persons, yet one God, so the Church is 22 Churches, yet one Church.

The Catechism of the Catholic Church summarizes this nicely:

"From the beginning, this one Church has been marked by a great diversity which comes from both the variety of God's gifts and the diversity of those who receive them... Holding a rightful place in the communion of the Church there are also particular Churches that retain their own traditions. The great richness of such diversity is not opposed to the Church's unity" (CCC no. 814).

Although there are 22 Churches, there are only eight "Rites" that are used among them. A Rite is a "liturgical, theological, spiritual and disciplinary patrimony," (Code of Canons of the Eastern Churches, canon 28). "Rite" best refers to the liturgical and disciplinary traditions used in celebrating the sacraments. Many Eastern Catholic Churches use the same Rite, although they are distinct autonomous Churches. For example, the Ukrainian Catholic Church and the Melkite Catholic Church are distinct Churches with their own hierarchies. Yet they both use the Byzantine Rite.

To learn more about the "two lungs" of the Catholic Church, visit this link:

CATHOLIC RITES AND CHURCHES

The Vatican II Council declared that "all should realize it is of supreme importance to understand, venerate, preserve, and foster the exceedingly rich liturgical and spiritual heritage of the Eastern churches, in order faithfully to preserve the fullness of Christian tradition" (Unitatis Redintegrato, 15).

A Roman rite Catholic may attend any Eastern Catholic Liturgy and fulfill his or her obligations at any Eastern Catholic Parish. A Roman rite Catholic may join any Eastern Catholic Parish and receive any sacrament from an Eastern Catholic priest, since all belong to the Catholic Church as a whole. I am a Roman Catholic practicing my faith at a Maronite Catholic Church. Like the Chaldeans, the Maronites retain Aramaic for the Consecration. It is as close as one comes to being at the Last Supper.

If you have never experienced a mass celebrated in an Eastern Catholic Church, I would encourage you to look around your state and attend one. The prayers are rich and poetic; they transport you heavenward.

[fatima]

Not to go off subject but if you spell check on Free Republic before posting the link is not live.
The Litany of the Saints
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jb23Z5X3uhA

[defconw]

Thanks for the tip! I always spell check.

[defconw]

Thanks for posting this. This is exactly why I protest the RC designation mostly used derisively on this forum. They presume to know that I am Roman Catholic. I am a Catholic. I have mostly gone Latin Rite. BUT! If there is an Eastern Rite Church handy, I have no problem going there either.

[JPX2011]

Thanks for posting this.

Just want to add my thanks too. As one whose exclusively attended the Latin Rite it's good to be exposed to the other forms of the Liturgy. It reveals the universality of the Church.

[fatima]

When I do the troop thread I just copy and post link to song and give hugs-easy.Never spell check:)
Monks singing Gregorian Chant in a Catholic Benedictine Seminary
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CBwh1OXw6uI

[defconw]

Well said!

[defconw]

Beautiful!