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To: boatbums; defconw; Grateful2God; annalex; BlueDragon
In fact, in many places God commands us to NOT try to contact the dead for the living. Praying to finite created beings implies they have omniscience and omnipresence so that they can hear every prayer from every person at the same time and have the power to answer those prayers. But only God has that kind of power. His glory He will not share with another.

Once again .. the saints are alive, not dead. Just as we ask our friends to pray for us, so too, we have friends in heaven who can pray for us as well. If, as you suggest, we should go directly to God, why are there daily threads on FR asking us to pray for someone? Let me cite the recent example of a Baptist man who worked as a janitor in a Catholic convent of the Sisters of Providence of St. Mary of the Woods in Indiana founded by Mother Theodore Guerin. Here's the background information:

After a grueling 1840 voyage across the ocean to the U.S. from France, Guerin put down roots in a desolate, thick wood near Terre Haute, Ind. Fighting discrimination and doubt, she established a thriving community of nuns and the oldest Catholic liberal arts college for women in the United States--St. Mary of the Woods College.

Accounts of her life describe Guerin as a determined woman who faced countless battles in building her congregation, the college, schools, orphanages and numerous ministries for the poor.

A biographer, Penny Blaker Mitchell, described her as an "ordinary woman who was able to attain extraordinary accomplishments because she loved and trusted God and worked with God to share hope, love and mercy with the people of her day."

The sisters felt she was a candidate for sainthood and asked others to pray for her. To become a saint, the church requires two verifiable miracles. Guerin's first occurred in 1908, when the sister who wrote her first biography, Sister Mary Theodosia Mug, claimed Guerin had cured her cancer.

The Sisters of Providence got their most convincing 2nd case in 2000. It came from a surprising, close-to-home source--the director of facilities management for the Sisters of Providence.

Phil McCord, now 59, was struggling with whether he should undergo a cornea transplant to restore vision in his right eye. On a whim, McCord, who is not Catholic, decided to step inside a chapel at St. Mary of the Woods one day.

As he settled in the pew, McCord asked Guerin not for a cure, but for peace. "By the way, this is your house and I'm your servant," he recalls saying. "... If you have any influence with God, I'd appreciate it."

The next day, his eye immediately felt better. Two weeks later, the same doctor who had recommended a transplant said he no longer needed it. A man who had worn glasses since he was 7 now had perfect eyesight.

Over the next several years, McCord participated in hearings and evidence collection. A panel of witnesses, including two doctors with no connection to McCord, declared there was no medical explanation for his cure.

"I'm a civil engineer. I deal with things I can touch and sense in the real world and I try to find rational, scientific explanations for things," McCord said. "This is just outside my experience."

McCord, raised a Baptist, isn't looking to convert, but he has great respect for what Guerin accomplished and what he says she did for him.

"She was a woman of great courage and as her story becomes known, I just hope that message will come out," McCord said. "You know, hope is possible."


Providence Sister Denise Wilkinson, general superior of the Sisters of Providence of Saint Mary-of-the-Woods, Philip McCord and Providence Sister Marie Kevin Tighe offer gifts to Pope Benedict XVI during the canonization liturgy for four saints, including Blessed Mother Theodore Guérin, on Oct. 15, 2006, at St. Peter’s Square in Rome. (Photo by Kelly Wilkinson/The Indianapolis Star)

Who cured Phil McCord? GOD

Phil availed himself of a living saint to place his request before God and God responded. Because he is the only God-man and the Mediator of the New Covenant, Jesus is the only mediator between man and God (1 Tim. 2:5), but this in no way means we cannot or should not ask our fellow Christians to pray with us and for us (1 Tim. 2:1–4). In particular, we should ask the intercession of those Christians in heaven, who have already had their sanctification completed, for "the prayer of a righteous man has great power in its effects" (Jas. 5:16).

70 posted on 12/10/2014 3:38:38 PM PST by NYer ("You are a puff of smoke that appears briefly and then disappears." James 4:14)
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To: NYer

I Believe!


72 posted on 12/10/2014 3:51:01 PM PST by defconw (If not now, WHEN?)
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To: NYer; boatbums
Listen, Nyer -----

It is rude for you to have now pinged me to this -- before responding to that which I just said to you, otherwise.

What is being engaged here in this is prime example of what in forum debate parlance is referred to as a moving of the goalposts, which all in all, is infuriating.

That said, these alleged, and/or alluded to instances to which you have now referred to, beyond having attributed the results to have come from God himself, suffer condition of being the logical fallacy of confusing correlation (if there truly is even, much of any of that) with causation as to process -- in this case the process under by which God Himself is seen to be responding in something of supernatural, miraculous way chiefly or mainly for reason of the process which is being assumed to have occurred.

Remember here also --- that in the previous discussion --- what or whom was being "prayed to" then?

It was not some passed on saint (an individual dear to the heart of God, perhaps even hidden in Christ, but rather was concerning praying to angels, instead. Remember?

Since that be deficient, theologically, biblically speaking --- before going any further here in this moving of the goalposts which you have indulged yourself in, I must remind you there is unattended business --- things left still undone.

Clean up, on aisle six. Not only are you the store-clerk, but you did cause the spill itself.

Please see to that rather than dashing about willy-nilly around within the store, offering further items to me, even forcing those upon myself as having been made by God's own hand directly, and that now equate that any should now put faith in this less-than-proven process, rather than more simply and more directly in God, Himself.

89 posted on 12/10/2014 7:07:41 PM PST by BlueDragon (I could see sound,love,and the soundsetme Free,but youwerenot listening,so could not see)
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To: NYer; BlueDragon
I've heard all these rationalizations, justifications and reasons why Catholics say they can pray to saints and to angels to intercede with God for them before. You can cite examples of people who did pray to deceased "Saints" and had their prayers answered, but let me ask you this, was it God's will to answer those prayers? Was it God's will to answer this janitor's prayer whether or not he prayed first to this would-be saint? I can give you numerous examples of people who prayed to Saints, followed all the "right" rules, said the "right" words, and they DIDN'T get their prayer request. What happened in those cases?

I hope you know that there is a vast difference between asking a living person you know to pray with you over a need and asking someone you know is already dead and may be in heaven or may not be. Those, for example, on these threads who have asked others here to pray with them has the effect of involving them in our lives and joining with each other in praise as we see how God works in our lives. Almost all the times I've read of supposed Saints working "miracles" - and it really isn't the saint DOING the miracle, you know that, right? - it is the saint that gets the glory and praise. You even talked about how your religion goes about verifying if someone is a saint in heaven based on if they have verified miracles to their credit or not. Can you not see how easy it would be for people to be deceived into believing whatever a so-called saint said was the truth? Things like visions, apparitions and other mystical things get passed off as genuine based on nothing more than a "Saint" declared it so and they MUST be speaking the truth because they are in heaven, right?

This thread was about praying to angels. You posted it in an OPEN Religion Forum thread so you must have wanted others to discuss the topic who may or may not be Catholic. I happen to believe that we aren't supposed to pray TO anyone BUT God. Y'all may justify this by saying it's no different than asking a friend to pray for you, but you have to know that it is a VASTLY different thing. Offering prayers to created beings, beings that do not have the Divine powers of God to be everywhere, hear everyone, all at the same time, especially those who have passed from this life and are no longer here, is presuming they have the same power as God. NOWHERE in Scripture are we ever told we can or should pray to departed people - in fact, we are commanded to NOT seek the dead on behalf of the living. Don't you think that if this were something that God desired we do for our benefit He would have said so?

We know that in all things all glory, honor and praise should go to Almighty God and that is not God being boastful or proud, it's Him just being honest. He alone deserves it because everything was created by Him and for Him and without Him NOTHING would exist that exists or existed. His glory He will not share with another because to do so would BE dishonest.

92 posted on 12/10/2014 8:21:29 PM PST by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to Him.)
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