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The Strawman Cometh-Continuation of threads on Joseph Smith's wives
exmormon.org ^ | November 11, 2014 | Anonymous

Posted on 11/13/2014 8:53:33 AM PST by greyfoxx39

As the new essay unintentionally hits the fan, Mormons are reeling and responding with their classic denials, claim of victim-hood and their typical repertoire of logical fallacies.

Soon, their favorite defender, the straw man argument will be in full regalia, culminating in a passive aggressive indirect platitude statement (such as doubt your doubts, you have to go around the BOM, etc.) in the next general conference to which members will cling to for life.

Already I have been contacted by members with their "straw man babies". So I have compiled a list of the quorum of the 15 straw men arguments that Mormons are making about this already:

1) It’s not that some girls were married “back then” at age 14. It’s that she was NOT married to Joseph, since he was married to another person who was not aware of the situation. 14 years old were by no means older back then. He had sex with his foster daughter, period. He has sex with the wives of men who he sent away on missions and made the women lie about their liaisons, full stop.

2) Joseph was forced to practice it by an angry angel. Joseph must have been one hell of seer to know to start practicing it before the revelation AND the angry angel came. It’s that none of the 40 women, suspiciously, including Emma, ever saw the angry angel. It's that he didn't have 40 wives, he had one, and 39 KNOWN affairs that he spend most of his time and efforts trying to conceal.

3) It’s not that the church is being "honest". It’s that there is a term for when before you are being honest, for 180+ years.

4) It’s not that some marriages MAY not have had sex, it’s that some did. It’s that some were married to other men and some were children. It’s that the ones that turned him down were destroyed and shunned. It’s that all were coerced or forced to practice it. It's that the church has, for the past 180 years, trying to collect, destroy, deny or file away any reference to these relationships being physical.

5) It’s not that it's OK because Emma accepted it and felt peace about it, it’s that Joseph got her best friend pregnant and did not tell Emma, and she in turn threw her pregnant friend down the stairs and she miscarried, maybe the peace came after that, or after she threw Fanny Algers on the street. Maybe the peace came after she left the church.

6) It’s not that people are demanding that Joseph smith be perfect, it’s that maybe a convicted con-man, polygamist, bank defrauder, fugitive, liar, pedophile, wife-thief, serial adulterer, plagiarist and murderer might not be the best person to trust with a story about an invisible gold book. it was Jesus when speaking on how to tell false prophets that said "by their fruits ye shall know them"...well, here's your sign.

7) It’s not that it was about raising children, or marrying a virgin, or being approved by the first wife, or about being more women than men or that it was OK after 1834…because NONE of those applied to Joseph.

8) It’s not that it is OK because “it was a long time ago”. It’s that it happened at all. It’s that those girls were children. It’s that it was a revelation and then he denied over and over and in May 1844 (he had 30+ wives by then) he offered to prove his accusers to be perjurers and to provide (falsified) affidavits.

9) It’s not OK because you have a testimony. It’s that your testimony is based on a fictitious character carefully created by the church media department. If you have a testimony, you don’t know the real Joseph.

10) It’s not about the church discontinuing the practice by the commandment of God. It was that they were forced to by the US government and therefore it shows that the church will change its history, doctrine, practices, and policies to make sure that the corporation survives.

11) It’s not that it is not practiced now. It’s that Gordon Hinckley lied on national TV a few years ago and said it was only practiced after they came out West and it was not doctrinal. Well, the thing is that an angel appearing 3 times is pretty doctrinal and so is The DOCTRINE and COVENANTS,which is canonized doctrine. It's that thousands of now ex-Mormons were excommunicated, attacked, gas-lighted, called names and shunned for even suggesting what these essays contain.

12) It’s not that it’s a fleck of history. It’s that thousands of children suffer in sexual relationships with adults in cults TODAY because of the practices and doctrines you cowardly failed to address, up until now, and which your founders taught as a requirement to enter heaven.

13) It’s not about polygamy; it’s about your church pretending that they are the defender of monogamous marriage, between one man and one woman as stating that this has always been so. It’s that you are stepping on the civil rights of others, just like you did those women, all in the name of religion. You can't claim those relationships to be marriages and at the same time, use your sudden love for the law, to deny other people their right to marry, so, pick a side.

14) It's not that the church has abandoned it. It’s that the concept of men forcing women and children into their bed using revelation is "a thing" in your doctrine. It’s about Warren Jeffs being JUST like Joseph Smith. He did not die an innocent lamb at the hands of evil men, he died because he slept with children and other men's wives, he died because he violated masonic oaths, he died because when his adultery was exposed by his former close associate, whose wife he tried to shag, he destroyed the printing press. It's that men can be sealed to more than one woman TODAY in the temple and women can't do the same.

15) It is not that the media and world does not understand Mormonism; it’s that you don’t understand Mormonism.


TOPICS: Current Events; General Discusssion; Other non-Christian; Theology
KEYWORDS: inman; lds; mormon; polygamy
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To: greyfoxx39
While members of the church worship and acknowledge the divinity of Jesus Christ, yet they should revere Joseph Smith.

Ya THINK???



What Joseph Smith Means to Us  (From: various sources )

 
 
 

"He (Joseph Smith) is the man through whom God has spoken... yet I would not like to call him a savior, though in a certain capacity he was a god to us, and is to the nations of the earth, and will continue to be."
- Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses 8:321
 
 
 
 
"You call us fools; but the day will be, gentlemen and ladies, whether you belong to this Church or not, when you will prize brother Joseph Smith as the Prophet of the Living God, and look upon him as a god..."
- Herber C. Kimball, Journal of Discourses 5:88
 
 
 
 
"If we get our salvation, we shall have to pass by him [Joseph Smith]; if we enter our glory, it will be through the authority he has received. We cannot get around him [Joseph Smith]"
- (as quoted in 1988 Melchizedek Priesthood Study Guide, p. 142)
There is "no salvation without accepting Joseph Smith. If Joseph Smith was verily a prophet, and if he told the truth...no man can reject that testimony without incurring the most dreadful consequences, for he cannot enter the kingdom of God"
- Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 1, p.190
 
 
 
 
"I tell you, Joseph holds the keys, and none of us can get into the celestial kingdom without passing by him. We have not got rid of him, but he stands there as the sentinel, holding the keys of the kingdom of God; and there are many of them beside him. I tell you, if we get past those who have mingled with us, and know us best, and have a right to know us best, probably we can pass all other sentinels as far as it is necessary, or as far as we may desire. But I tell you, the pinch will be with those that have mingled with us, stood next to us, weighed our spirits, tried us, and proven us: there will be a pinch, in my view, to get past them. The others, perhaps, will say, If brother Joseph is satisfied with you, you may pass. If it is all right with him, it is all right with me. Then if Joseph shall say to a man, or if brother Brigham say to a man, I forgive you your sins, "Whosoever sins ye remit they are remitted unto them;" if you who have suffered and felt the weight of transgression—if you have generosity enough to forgive the sinner, I will forgive him: you cannot have more generosity than I have. I have given you power to forgive sins, and when the Lord gives a gift, he does not take it back again."
- Orson Hyde, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 6, p.154-155
 
 
 
 
"It is because the Lord called Joseph Smith that salvation is again available to mortal men.... If it had not been for Joseph Smith and the restoration, there would be no salvation,"
- Bruce McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, p. 396, 670


They succeeded in killing Joseph, but he had finished his work.
He was a servant of God, and gave us the Book of Mormon.
He said the Bible was right in the main, but, through the translators and others, many precious portions were suppressed, and several other portions were wrongly translated; and now his testimony is in force, for he has sealed it with his blood.
As I have frequently told them, no man in this dispensation will enter the courts of heaven, without the approbation of the Prophet Joseph Smith, Jun.
Who has made this so?
Have I?
Have this people?
Have the world?
No; but the Lord Jehovah has decreed it.
If I ever pass into the heavenly courts, it will be by the consent of the Prophet Joseph.
If you ever pass through the gates into the Holy City, you will do so upon his certificate that you are worthy to pass.
Can you pass without his inspection?
No; neither can any person in this dispensation, which is the dispensation of the fulness of times.
In this generation, and in all the generations that are to come, everyone will have to undergo the scrutiny of this Prophet.
They say that they killed Joseph, and they will yet come with their hats under their arms and bend to him; but what good will it do them, unless they repent?
They can come in a certain way and find favor, but will they?
Brigham Young,

--JOURNAL OF DISCOURSES, vol. 8, p. 224


101 posted on 11/13/2014 11:49:37 AM PST by Elsie ( Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: ifinnegan
You don’t make sense.

And yet you are still here; tilting at the windmill.

I get the impression that false teachings about Chistianity do not bother you; but obsessing over them does.

You don’t make sense.

102 posted on 11/13/2014 11:51:25 AM PST by Elsie ( Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: colorcountry
Mormons are sinners just like you and I. It’s a shame they think they are somehow better.

If you can judge a tree by its fruits, then the product of Mormonism surely excels that of Islam both civilizationally and individually. So, yes, Mormonism is better than many other creeds. And I'm not a Mormon, far from it.

103 posted on 11/13/2014 11:52:38 AM PST by Sparklite
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To: teppe
Since Christianity was agrguably started by polygamists, Abraham, Jacob (probably Isaac as well), You should probably find another religion.

Your chosen religion was started by a proven conman; yet you stay in it.

What kind of scheme are you working against your fellow LDS members?


You should probably DEFINITIELY find another religion.

104 posted on 11/13/2014 11:53:31 AM PST by Elsie ( Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Elsie

What does “teppe” mean?

Mormonism was polygamous. Some still practice it. It was part of their Theology, something about souls waiting for bodies to go into, so the idea was to have as many children as possible. That is my understanding of it.

They stopped being polygamous to be able to have Utah become a state. That’s my understanding of it.

Some, including Mitt Romney’s ancestors, went to Mexico to be able to continue polygamy. That’s my understanding of it.

Some adherents to Mormonism, outside or ostensibly outside, of LDS still practice polygamy. That’s my understanding of it.

Mormonism is a false religion with a non-Christian theology. That’s my understanding of it.

Mormons in the US in the 20th and 21st century have generally been politically conservative and good citizens. That’s my understanding of it.


105 posted on 11/13/2014 11:54:19 AM PST by ifinnegan
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To: acad1228
This guy needs to have a Coke and a smile and shut the Hell up.

One out three ain't bad...

We ain't s'posed to drink Coke©.


106 posted on 11/13/2014 11:55:52 AM PST by Elsie ( Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: acad1228
Yes, they believe differently than you do. They're allowed to. Get over it.

But... but... we signed up for a YEAR!!!


107 posted on 11/13/2014 11:57:16 AM PST by Elsie ( Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Elsie

Yes. So what?


108 posted on 11/13/2014 11:57:31 AM PST by Sparklite
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To: Elsie

I was quoting scripture. There is judging and then there is judging.

I was talking about judging. Not all the judging in the bible is the same.


109 posted on 11/13/2014 11:58:22 AM PST by cuban leaf (The US will not survive the obama presidency. The world may not either.)
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To: greyfoxx39

Yup.

Nuttin’ posted since then.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=rY0WxgSXdEE


110 posted on 11/13/2014 11:59:57 AM PST by Elsie ( Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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You suck.

In what way?

111 posted on 11/13/2014 12:01:23 PM PST by Elsie ( Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Elsie

Hi Elsie,

I now see what teppe is.

I post via pings and don’t read all the posts in thread.

Now I see teppe’s posts.


112 posted on 11/13/2014 12:01:25 PM PST by ifinnegan
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To: Colofornian
So what's QUITE telling here is that even Teppe the supposedly faithful Mormon doesn't take Joseph Smith at face value anymore!

Or Living Prophet® Number Two!



The question is, do i believe Joesph Smith to have been a false Prophet?
 
Do ANY of you "damned " SLC mormons reading this, who has gotten any information from your church, that old B.Y. was:
 
1. Speaking the very words of GOD
2. Drunk
3. On peyote
4. REALLY upset at SOMEone
5. Or just running his mouth as a man: a mere mortal, prone to the slings and arrows that beset us all or do you
6. just accept the FACT that you are, truly, damned for not following your Scripture found in D&C 132:58-66?

113 posted on 11/13/2014 12:02:58 PM PST by Elsie ( Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: ifinnegan; reaganaut; SZonian; Sentinal
My comment is to the effectiveness of the presentation.

Szonian, Sentinal; I think this is for you...

114 posted on 11/13/2014 12:05:01 PM PST by Elsie ( Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: ifinnegan
Your paranoia is unwarranted.

A little bit judgmental; eh?

115 posted on 11/13/2014 12:06:38 PM PST by Elsie ( Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: ifinnegan
But it’s proving my point that this is an irrational discussion.

Discussions always take at least two.

116 posted on 11/13/2014 12:07:26 PM PST by Elsie ( Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: greyfoxx39

What I don’t understand is just WHO are you accusing of “except”ing sodomy? Here is some “accepting” by the mormon church...


What I am referring to is that this is a nation ruled by the people through representatives.

The Government has made same sex marriage legal.

So if the representatives are representing us it means the majority are excepting sodomy and at the same time polygamy is not legal which means the majority does not except it.


117 posted on 11/13/2014 12:09:19 PM PST by ravenwolf (` know if an other temple will be built or not but the)
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To: greyfoxx39
"The Mormon Church has acknowledged that homosexuality is an issue that many Mormons struggle with.

Hell!

Some of them downright EMBRACE it!!


I'm a MORMON ...
 
 
 

http://www.affirmation.org/

118 posted on 11/13/2014 12:09:31 PM PST by Elsie ( Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Colofornian

Yes.

I now see teppe explicitly defending Mormonism.

I don’t think 61 is a defense of Mormonism.

Nor is anything I or Olog wrote a defense of Mormonism.


119 posted on 11/13/2014 12:09:33 PM PST by ifinnegan
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To: greyfoxx39

120 posted on 11/13/2014 12:10:02 PM PST by Elsie ( Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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