Seven Proofs for the Natural Immortality of the Human Soul

Tim Staples' Blog ^ | September 24, 2014 | Tim Staples

[Yosemitest]

Here's your answer.
Now go and earn your honour.

[CynicalBear]

>>You just don't learn, do you?<<

I've learned a lot in my near 70 years. I know to trust what Jesus said over what apostates say.

>>I guess Isaiah 28:13 has to be represented for others to see, also.<<

Actually the whold of Isaiah 28 not just verse 13. It goes on to say in verse 15 "Because you have said, "We have made a covenant with death, And with Sheol we have made a pact. The overwhelming scourge will not reach us when it passes by, For we have made falsehood our refuge and we have concealed ourselves with deception."

It's the followers of Armstrong who claim their is no eternal torment in hell. It's the followers of Armstrong who say there are multiple gods.

[Elsie]

Here's your answer.

You seem to be very reluctant just to spit it out.

Why?

[Yosemitest]

And who's church made that "covenant with death" ?

Have you not studied the Matthew Henry Commentary on the Whole Bible (Complete) on Isaiah 28: Verses 14-22 ?

" ... Verses 14-22

The prophet, having reproved those that made a jest of the word of God, here
goes on to reprove those that made a jest of the judgments of God,
and set them at defiance;
for he is a jealous God,
and will not suffer either his ordinances or his providences to be brought into contempt.
He addressed himself to the scornful men who ruled in Jerusalem, who were the magistrates of the city, v. 14.
It is bad with a people when their thrones of judgment
become the seats of the scornful,
when rulers
are scorners;
but that the rulers of Jerusalem should be men of such a character, that they should make light of God’s judgments
and scorn to take notice of the tokens of his displeasure,
is very sad.
Who will be mourners in Zion if they are scorners?

Observe,
I. How these scornful men lulled themselves asleep in carnal security,
and even challenged God Almighty to do his worst (v. 15)
You have said, We have made a covenant with death and the grave.
They thought themselves as sure of their lives,
even when the most destroying judgments were abroad,
as if they had made a bargain with death, upon a valuable consideration,
not to come till they sent for him
or not to take them away by any violence,
but by old age.
If we be at peace with God, and have made a covenant with him,
we have in effect made a covenant with death
that it shall come in the fittest time,
that whenever it comes,
it shall be no terror to us, nor do us any real damage;
death is ours if we be Christ’s (1 Co. 3:22, 1 Co. 3:23 ):
but to think of making death our friend, or being in league with it,
while by sin
we are making God our enemy
and are at war with him,
is the greatest absurdity that can be.
It was fond conceit which these scorners had, "When the overflowing scourge shall pass through our country, and others shall fall under it,
yet it shall not come to us, not reach us, though it extend far,
not bear us down, though it is an overflowing scourge.’’
It is the greatest folly imaginable for impenitent sinners to think that
either in this world or the other
they shall fare better than their neighbours.
But what is the ground of their confidence?
Why, truly, We have made lies our refuge.

Either, 1. Those things which the prophets told them would be lies and falsehood to them and would deceive,
but which they themselves looked upon as substantial fences.
The protection of their idols,
the promises with which their false prophets soothed them,
their policy, their wealth, their interest in the people;
these they confided in,
and not in God;
nay, these they confided in against God.

Or, 2. Those things which should be lies and falsehood to the enemy, who was flagellum Dei—the scourge of God, the overflowing scourge;
they would secure themselves by imposing upon the enemy with their stratagems of war, or their feigned submissions in treaties of peace.
The rest of the cities of Judah were taken because they made an obstinate defence; but the rulers of Jerusalem hope to succeed better.
They think themselves greater politicians than those of the country towns;
they will compliment the king of Assyria with a promise to surrender their city,
or to become tributaries to him,
with a purpose at the same time to shake off his yoke as soon as the danger is over,
not caring though they be found liars to him, as the expression is, Deu. 33:29 .
Note, Those put a cheat upon themselves
that think to gain their point
by putting cheats upon those they deal with.
Those that pursue their designs by trick and fraud,
by mean and paltry shifts,
may perhaps compasss them,
but cannot expect comfort in them.
Honesty is the best policy.
But such refuges as these are those driven to that
depart from God,
and throw themselves out of his protection.


II. How God, by the prophet, awakens them out of this sleep, and shows them the folly of their security.

1. He tells them upon what grounds they might be secure.
He does not disturb their false confidences,
till he has first shown them a firm bottom on which they may repose themselves (v. 16):
Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone.
This foundation is,
(1.) The promises of God in general—his word,
upon which he has caused his people to hope—his covenant with Abraham,
that he would be a God to him and his;
this is a foundation, a foundation of stone, firm and lasting, for faith to build upon;
it is a tried stone, for all the saints have stayed themselves upon it and it never failed them.
(2.) The promise of Christ in particular;
for to him this is expressly applied in the New Testament, 1 Pt. 2:6-8 .
He is that stone which has become the head of the corner.
The great promise of the Messiah and his kingdom, which was to begin at Jerusalem, was sufficient to make God’s people easy in the worst of times;
for they knew well that till he came the sceptre should not depart from Judah.
Zion shall continue while this foundation is yet to be laid there. "Thus saith the Lord Jehovah, for the comfort of those that dare not make lies their refuge,
Behold, and look upon me as one that has undertaken to lay in Zion a Stone,’’ Jesus Christ is a foundation of God’s laying.
This is the Lord’s doing.
He is laid in Zion, in the church, in the holy hill.
He is a tried stone, a trying stone (so some), a touch-stone, that shall distinguish between true and counterfeit.
He is a precious stone, for such are the foundations of the New Jerusalem (Rev. 21:19 ),
a corner-stone, in whom the sides of the building are united, the head-stone of the corner.
And he that believes these promises, and rests upon them, shall not make haste, shall not run to and fro in a hurry,
as men at their wits’ end, shall not be shifting hither and thither for his own safety,
nor be driven to his feet by any terrors,
as the wicked man is said to be (Job. 18:11 ),
but with a fixed heart shall quietly wait the event, saying,
Welcome the will of God.
He shall not make haste in his expectations,
so as to anticipate the time set in the divine counsels,
but, though it tarry, will wait the appointed hour, knowing that he that shall come will come, and will not tarry.
He that believes will not make more haste than good speed, but be satisfied that God’s time is the best time,
and wait with patience for it.
The apostle from the Septuagint explains this, 1 Pt. 2:6 .
He that believes on him shall not be confounded; his expectations shall not be frustrated, but far out-done.

2. He tells them that upon the grounds which they now built on
they could not be safe,
but their confidences would certainly fail them (v. 17):
Judgment will I lay to the line, and righteousness to the plummet.
This denotes,
(1.) The building up of his church;
having laid the foundation (v. 16), he will raise the structure, as builders do, by line and plummet, Zec. 4:10 .
Righteousness shall be the line and judgment the plummet.
The church, being grounded on Christ, shall be formed and reformed by the scripture,
the standing rule of judgment and righteousness.
Judgment shall return unto righteousness, Ps. 94:15 .
Or, (2.) The punishing of the church’s enemies,
against whom he will proceed in strict justice,
according to the threatenings of the law.
He will give them their deserts, and bring upon them the judgments they have challenged,
but in wisdom too,
and by an exact rule, that the tares may not be plucked up with the wheat.
And when God comes thus to execute judgment,
[1.] These scornful men will be made ashamed of the vain hopes with which they had deluded themselves.
First, They designed to make lies their refuge;
but it will indeed prove a refuge of lies, which the hail shall sweep away, that tempest of hail spoken of v. 2.
Those that make lies their refuge build upon the sand,
and the building will fall when the storm comes,
and bury the builder in the ruins of it.
Those that make any thing their hiding place but Christ shall find that the waters will overflow it,
as every shelter but the ark was over-topped and overthrown by the waters of the deluge.
Such is the hope of the hypocrite; this will come of all his confidences.
Secondly, They boasted of a covenant with death, and an agreement with the grave; but it shall be disannulled,
as made without his consent who has the keys and sovereign command of hell and death.
Those do but delude themselves
that think by any wiles to evade the judgments of God.
Thirdly, They fancied that
when the overflowing scourge should pass through the land
it should not come near them;
but the prophet tells them
that then, when others were falling by the common calamity,
they should not only share in it,
but should be trodden down by it:
"You shall be to it for a treading down;
it shall triumph over you as much as over any other,
and you shall become its easy prey.’’
They are further told (v. 19),
1. That it shall begin with them;
they shall be so far from escaping it
that they shall be the first that shall fall by it:
"From the time it goes forth
it shall take you,
as if it came on purpose to seize you.’’
2. That it shall pursue them closely:
"Morning by morning shall it pass over; as duly as the day returns
you shall hear of some desolation or other made by it;
for divine justice will follow its blow;
you shall never be safe nor easy
by day nor by night;
there shall be a pestilence walking in darkness
and a destruction wasting at noonday.’’
3. That there shall be no avoiding it:
"The understanding of the report of its approach shall not give you any opportunity to make your escape,
for there shall be no way of escape open;
but it shall be only a vexation,
you shall see it coming,
and not see how to help yourselves.’’
Or,
"The very report of it at a distance will be a terror to you;
what then will the thing itself be?’
’ Evil tidings are a terror and vexation to scorners,
but he whose heart is fixed, trusting in God,
is not afraid of them;
whereas, when the overflowing scourge comes,
then all the comforts and confidences of scorners fail them, v. 20.
(1.) That in which they thought to repose themselves
reaches not to the length of their expectations:
The bed is shorter than that a man can stretch himself upon it, so that he is forced to cramp and contract himself.
(2.) That in which they thought to shelter themselves proves insufficient to answer the intention:
The covering is narrower than that a man can wrap himself in it.
Those that do not build upon Christ as their foundation, but rest in a righteousness of their own,
will prove in the end thus to have deceived themselves;
they can never be easy, safe, nor warm;
the bed is too short, the covering is too narrow;
like our first parents’ fig-leaves,
the shame of their nakedness will still appear.
[2.] God will be glorified in the accomplishment of his counsels, v. 21.
When God comes to contend with these scorners,
First, He will do his work, and bring to pass his act,
he will work for his own honour and glory, according to his own purpose;
the work shall appear to all that see it to be the work of God as the righteous Judge of the earth.
Secondly, He will do it now against His people,
as formerly he did it against their enemies,
by which his justice will appear to be impartial;
he will now rise up against Jerusalem as, in David’s time,
against the Philistines in Mount Perazim (2 Sa. 5:20 ),
and as, in Joshua’s time, against the Canaanites in the valley of Gibeon.
If those that profess themselves members of God’s church by their pride and scornfulness
make themselves like Philistines and Canaanites,
they must expect to be dealt with as such.
Thirdly, This will be his strange work, his strange act, his foreign deed.
It is work that he is backward to:
he rather delights in showing mercy, and does not afflict willingly.
It is work that he is not used to
as to his own people;
he protects and favours them.
It is a strange work indeed if he turn to be their enemy and fight against them, ch. 63:10 .
It is a work that all the neighbours will stand amazed at (Deu. 29:24 ),
and therefore the ruins of Jerusalem are said to be an astonishment, Jer. 25:18 .
Lastly, We have the use and application of all this (v. 22):
"Therefore be you not mockers; dare not to ridicule either the reproofs of God’s word or the approaches of his judgments.’’
Mocking the messengers of the Lord was Jerusalem’s measure-filling sin.
The consideration of the judgments of God that are coming upon hypocritical professors
should effectually silence mockers,
and make them serious:
"Be you not mockers, lest your bands be made strong,
both the bands by which you are bound under the dominion of sin’
’ (for there is little hope of the conversion of mockers) "
and the bands by which you are bound over to the judgments of God.’’


God has bands of justice strong enough to hold those
that break all the bonds of his law asunder
and cast away all his cord from them.
Let not these mockers make light of divine threatenings,
for the prophet (who is one of those with whom the secret of the Lord is) assures them
that the Lord God of hosts has, in his hearing, determined a consumption upon the whole earth;
and can they think to escape?
or shall their unbelief invalidate the threatening? ... "

So the GREAT WHORE fills her congregation with pompous ceremony and chaff, but very rarely does she give any truth, ~ or wisdom.

[Yosemitest]

I think the WHY" ~ is obvious.

[Yosemitest]

"It's the followers of Armstrong who say there are multiple gods. "

So you don't believe there is the HEAVENLY FATHER AND HIS SON, JESUS CHRIST ?

[Elsie]

I think the WHY" ~ is obvious.

Perhaps you may see it easily; but I aver that others do not.

Can you be a bit more forthcoming?

[Elsie]

So you don't believe there is the HEAVENLY FATHER AND HIS SON, JESUS CHRIST ?

Do we have some MORMON teaching here??

Jesus Christ is God’s Son, spiritually and physically.

He calls Him Father, He prays to Him.
We are to pray to Him, God the Father, in the name of Jesus Christ, His Son.
God’s voice was heard at Christ’s baptism, coming from Heaven while He was in the water. The Holy Sirit also descended. Three seperate entities/Gods.

Santorum endorses one-time rival Romney

Thursday, May 10, 2012 12:32:46 AM · 416 of 492
Jeff Head to stpio

[Yosemitest]

The holy spirit is not a separate entity, but the power through which God does His works.
Again, read John 1:1-18 because it IS extremely clear.
Other than that, I have no idea as to what you are referring to.
I'm not well versed in Moronism.

[Diamond]

The holy spirit is not a separate entity, but the power through which God does His works.
Again, read John 1:1-18 because it IS extremely clear.
Other than that, I have no idea as to what you are referring to.
I'm not well versed in Moronism.

You're not very well versed in Scripture, either. You think you are but you are not because you have been influenced by false teachers. You say;

The holy spirit is not a separate entity, but the power through which God does His works.

You quote from John, but John applied the emphatic demonstrative masculine pronoun ekeinos to the Holy Spirit which would not be the case if the Holy Spirit were an impersonal force. John The Holy Spirit in Scripture is distinguished from the Father and Son and is also called "God" along with the Father and the Son. The Holy Spirit and is equated to YHWH by NT writers, who also ascribe to Him Personal attributes. He is called "another Comforter" by John, and the word 'another' allon - ἄλλον means ANOTHER OF LIKE KIND.

paraklētos

Thayer Definition:

1) summoned, called to one’s side, especially called to one’s aid

1a) one who pleads another’s cause before a judge, a pleader, counsel for defense, legal assistant, an advocate

1b) one who pleads another’s cause with one, an intercessor

1b1) of Christ in his exaltation at God’s right hand, pleading with God the Father for the pardon of our sins

1c) in the widest sense, a helper, succourer, aider, assistant

1c1) of the Holy Spirit destined to take the place of Christ with the apostles (after his ascension to the Father), to lead them to a deeper knowledge of the gospel truth, and give them divine strength needed to enable them to undergo trials and persecutions on behalf of the divine kingdom

Part of Speech: noun masculine

Jesus is also called the paraklētos and he will pray to the Father to send one of like kind. Jesus is a Person Who is also called παράκλητος - paraklētos. Therefore, to be of like kind, the Holy Spirit must also be a Person.

I suspect that because of your presuppositions none of these facts will make the slightest difference to you. Anyone who thinks that "...who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? " in 1 Corinthians 2:11 is referring to demonic sprits as stated in post #95 is so blinded and deafened by his own presuppositions that he cannot and/or will not see or listen to Scripture, the Word of God Himself, much less anything I say.

Cordially,

[Elsie]

The holy spirit is not a separate entity, but the power through which God does His works.

Izzat so?

---

I'm not well versed in Moronism. (sic)

That's ok; as you seem to had the JW position down pretty good.

[Elsie]

Again, read John 1:1-18 because it IS extremely clear.

O...
K...

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made . 4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men. 5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not. 6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe . 8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light. 9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world. 10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. 11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not. 12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13 Which were born , not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. 14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. 15 John bare witness of him, and cried , saying , This was he of whom I spake , He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me. 16 And of his fulness have all we received , and grace for grace. 17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ. 18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

[Elsie]

 

If you have cable TV, there won’t be much on to watch.

 

 

 

 

If there isn’t much on to watch, you will answer your door whenever someone rings.

 

 

 

 

If you open your door, you will see mormons.

 

 

 

 

If you talk to mormons, they will trick you into “praying about whether something is true”.

 

 

 

 

If you rely on your feelings, you may become a mormon.

 

 

 

 

If you become a mormon, you will have to wear magic underwear!

 

 

 

 

If you wear magic underwear, people will immediately label you as a cultist.

DON’T be a cultist!
Get DirectTV.

[Yosemitest]

What does the Bible tell you in I Thes. 5:21 and in 1 Peter 3:15 ?
Do you know the origins of the FALSE "Trinity Doctrine" ?

Let's review.

The New Catholic Encyclopedia begins:

"It is difficult, in the second half of the 20th century, to offer a clear, objective, and straightforward account of the revelation, doctrinal evolution,
and the theological elaboration of the mystery of the Trinity.
Trinitarian discussion, Roman Catholic as well as other, presents a somewhat unsteady silhouette" (Vol. XIV, p. 295).

The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia, article "Trinity," p. 3012 states:

'The term 'Trinity' is not a Biblical term,
and we are not using Biblical language when we define what is expressed by it as the doctrine."

Catholic theologian Karl Rahner recognizes that theologians in the past have been:

". . . embarrassed by the simple fact that in reality the Scriptures do not explicitly present a doctrine of the 'imminent' Trinity (even John's prologue is no such doctrine)"
(The Trinity, p. 22). (Author's emphasis.)

Probably the most notorious scripture used in times past as "proof" of a Trinity is 1 John 5:7.
However, many theologians recognize that this scripture was added to the New Testament manuscripts probably as late as the eighth century A.D.
Notice what Jamieson, Fausset and Brown wrote in their commentary:

"The only Greek MSS. [manuscripts], in any form which support the words,
'in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost:
and these three are one.
And there are three that bear witness in earth . . .'
are the Montfortianus of Dublin, copied evidently from the modern Latin Vulgate;
the Rauianus copied from the Complutensian Polyglot;
a MS. [manuscript] at Naples, with the words added in the margin by a recent hand;
Ottobonianus, 298, of the fifteenth century, the Greek of which is a mere translation of the accompanying Latin.
All old versions omit the words."

Hasting's Bible Dictionary, Vol. 12, p. 458 says:

"Although the notion of a Triad or Trinity is characteristic of the Christian religion, it is by no means peculiar to it.
In Indian religion, e.g., we meet with the Trinitarian group of Brahma, Siva, and Visnu;
and the Egyptian religion with the Trinitarian group of Osiris, Isis, and Horus, constituting a divine family,
like the Father, Mother and Son in medieval Christian pictures.
Nor is it only in historical religions that we find God viewed as a Trinity.
One recalls in particular the Neo-Platonic view of the Supreme or Ultimate Reality, which was suggested by Plato..."

Egyptian Belief and Modern Thought, by James Bonwick, F.R.G.S., p. 396 also say:

"Though it is usual to speak of the Semitic tribes as monotheistic;
yet it is an undoubted fact that more or less all over the world the deities are in triads.
This rule applies to eastern and western hemispheres, to north and south.
Further, it is observed that, in some mystical way, the triad of three persons is one....
The definition of Athanasius [a fourth-century Christian] who lived in Egypt, applied to the trinities of all heathen religions"

And from this source:

It was Athanasius' formulation for the Trinity which was adopted by the Catholic Church at the Council of Nicaea in A.D. 325.
Athanasius was an Egyptian from Alexandria and his philosophy was also deeply rooted in Platonism.

"The Alexandrian catechetical school, which revered Clement of Alexandria and Origen, the greatest theologians of the Greek Church, as its heads, applied the allegorical method to the explanation of Scripture.
Its thought was influenced by Plato:
its strong point was theological speculation.
Athanasius and the three Cappadocians had been included among its members . . ."
( Ecumenical Councils of the Catholic Church, by Hubert Jedin, p. 29).

In order to explain the relationship of Christ to God the Father, the church fathers felt that it was necessary to use the philosophy of the day.
They obviously thought that their religion would be more palatable if they made it sound like the pagan philosophy that was extant at the time.
These men were versed in philosophy, and that philosophy colored their understanding of the Bible.

It was the doctrine of the Trinity -- colored by the philosophy of the time—that was accepted by the Church in the early part of the fourth century — over three hundred years after Christ's death.

Even theologians recognize that the Trinity is a creation of the fourth century, not the first!

" 'There is recognition on the part of exegetist and Biblical theologians, including a constantly growing number of Roman Catholics,
that one should not speak of Trinitarianism in the New Testament without serious qualification.
There is also the closely parallel recognition —
that when one does speak of unqualified Trinitarianism,
one has moved from the period of Christian origins to say, the last quadrant of the 4th century.
It was only then that what might be called the definitive Trinitarian dogma 'one God in three persons' became thoroughly assimilated into Christian life and thought"
(New Catholic Encyclopedia, article "Trinity," Vol. 14, p. 295).

The Council of Nicaea

It was at the Council of Nicaea in A.D. 325 that two members of the Alexandrian congregation, Arius, a priest,
who believed that Christ was not a God, but a created being;
and Athanasius, a deacon
who believed that the Father, Son and Spirit are the same being living in a threefold form
(or in three relationships, as a man may be at the same time a father, a son and a brother),
presented their cases.

The Council of Nicaea was not called by the church leaders, as one might suppose.
It was called by the Emperor Constantine.
And he had a far from spiritual reason for wanting to solve the dispute that had arisen.

"In 325 the Emperor Constantine called an ecclesiastical council to meet at Nicaea in Bithynia.
In the hope of securing for his throne the support of the growing body of Christians he had shown them considerable favor and it was to his interest to have the church vigorous and united.
The Arian controversy was threatening its unity and menacing its strength.
He therefore undertook to put an end to the trouble.
It was suggested to him, perhaps by the Spanish bishop Hosius who was influential at court, that if a synod were to meet representing the whole church both east and west, it might be possible to restore harmony.
Constantine himself of course neither knew or cared anything about the matter in dispute but he was eager to bring the controversy to a close, and Hosius' advice appealed to him as sound"
(A History of Christian Thought, Vol. I, p. 258).

The decision as to which of the two men the church was to follow was a more or less arbitrary one.
Constantine really didn't care which choice was made—all he wanted was a united church.
(Arius was banished, but later recalled by Constantine, examined and found to be without heresy.)

The majority of those present at the council were not ready to take either side in the controversy.

"A clearly defined standpoint with regard to this problem — the relationship of Christ to God—was held only by the attenuated group of Arians and a far from numerous section of delegates, who adhered with unshaken conviction to the Alexandrian [Athanasius'] view.
The bulk of the members occupied a position between these two extremes.
They rejected the formulae of Arius, and declined to accept those of his opponents . . .
the voting was no criterion of the inward conviction of the council"(Encyclopedia Britannica, 11th ed., article "Nicaea, Council of," p. 641).

The council rejected Arius' views, and rightly so, but they had nothing with which to replace it.
Thus the ideas of Athanasius—also a minority view—prevailed.
The rejection of Arianism was not blanket acceptance of Athanasius.
Yet, the church in all the ensuing centuries has been "stuck," so to speak, with the job of upholding— right or wrong—the decision made at Nicaea.

After the council the Trinity became official dogma in the church, but the controversy did not end.
In the next few years more Christians were killed by other Christians over that doctrine than were killed by all the pagan emperors of Rome.
Yet, for all the fighting and killing, neither of the two parties had a biblical leg to stand on.

So ... 1 John should read:

"For there are three that bear record,
the Spirit, and the water and the blood:
and these three AGREE IN ONE."

Three things bear record.
But WHAT do they bear record TO?
A Trinity?
We shall see.

Bear Record to What ?

The Spirit, the water and the blood bear record OF THE FACT THAT Jesus Christ, the Son of God, IS LIVING His life over again IN US.
John clarifies it in verses 11-12:

"And this is the record,
that God hath given to us eternal life,
and this life is in his Son.
He that hath the Son hath life;
and he that hath not the Son of God
hath not life."

But HOW DO these three elements—the Spirit, the water, and the blood—specifically bear witness to this basic biblical truth?

"The Spirit beareth witness
with our spirit,
that we ARE the children of God"(Rom. 8:16).

Water is representative of baptism,
which bears witness of the burial of the old self
and the beginning of a new life (Rom. 6:1-6).

The blood represents Christ's death by crucifixion,
which pays the penalty for our sins,
reconciling us to God (Rom. 5:9, 10).

Now understand WHY Christ commanded the apostles to baptize in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit (Matt. 28:19).
First of all, Jesus did not command the apostles to baptize in the name of the Father, the Son and the Spirit as an indication that God is a Trinity.
No such relationship is indicated in the Bible.

WHY, then, were they to baptize using these three names?
The answer is clear.

They were to baptize in the name of the Father because
it is the goodness of God
that brings us to repentance (Rom. 2:4),
and because the Father is the One
"of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named" (Eph. 3:15).
In the name of the Son because
He is the one who died for our sins,
and in the name of the Spirit because
God sends His Spirit,
making us His begotten Sons (Rom. 8:16).

Many theologians have MISUNDERSTOOD THE PART that the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit PLAY IN each person's SALVATION.
The doctrine of the Trinity is the result of THAT MISUNDERSTANDING.

The Trinity IS NOT a biblical doctrine.
It has NO BASIS in biblical FACT.

Why the Deception?

Why has Satan palmed off the doctrine of the Trinity on the world?
Because he doesn't want you to rule in his place!
Satan was originally created to carry out God's rule on earth.
But, he refused to serve the Creator and even fomented a rebellion to dislodge God from His position as Ruler over the whole universe (Ezek. 28:l9; Isa. 14:12-14).
A third of the angels united with Lucifer in that rebellion and were cast back down to this earth with him (Rev. 12:3-4)—having forever disqualified themselves and Satan from ruling in the government of God.
However, Satan and his demonic cohorts remain in office UNTIL CHRIST ACTUALLY RETURNS.

Yet being disqualified, they do NOT want anyone else EVER to take THEIR place.
For that reason, during nearly 6000 years of man, they have tried to hide from all the world the breathtaking truth of God.
If they can make you believe in the Trinity, you will be deceived into thinking that the Godhead consists of ONLY three persons.
You would then NEVER in your wildest dreams ever imagine that YOU were created TO BE BORN INTO the God family—
to actually have A PART IN RULING this earth!


Satan wants you to think that God is a LIMITED Trinity—NOT A GROWING FAMILY or Kingdom
INTO WHICH WE MAY, THROUGH THE GRACE of God, ENTER.

There you have it.
That is the truth about the Trinity.
God's family is NOT CLOSED to mankind
as Satan would have you believe.

It's wide open TO YOU, your family and all mankind.
You can be made in the exact likeness of God AT Christ's RETURN !

[Diamond]

Your post is simply unresponsive to the three points I raised to you:

1. John's use of the emphatic demonstrative masculine pronoun ekeinos to refer to the Holy Spirit (in spite of the fact that pneuma is a neuter noun)

2. He is called "another Comforter" by John, and the word 'another' allon - ἄλλον means ANOTHER OF LIKE KIND.

3. And you apparently think, and please correct me if I am wrong on this point, that the Scripture "...who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? " in 1 Corinthians 2:11 is referring to demonic sprits (as you apparently stated in post #95).

If you will address these three points directly I will read and consider what you write.

Cordially,

[Yosemitest]

DouglasKC, I commented at the bottom about Diamond's response to your comment #89.

Diamond, all of this is for you.

You want to talk about "pneuma" vs "psuche" .
The answer for "psuche" and the different ways it is interpreted, was given in comment #93

" 1. John's use of the emphatic demonstrative masculine pronoun ekeinos to refer to the Holy Spirit (in spite of the fact that pneuma is a neuter noun)"

You are referring to John 16:7-15.
You also want to connect the "pronoun ekeinos", which is also a adjective to "spirit" and actually INDICATES the ownership of that spirit, God the Father.
Someone much more experienced than me, a retired air traffic controller, wrote very good dissertation on this years ago.
Here's aan excerpt of that article:

The Greek Word For "He"

Many assume that the language of Christ (recorded by John) concerning the "Other Comforter" is referring to a third person of the Godhead.

Christ said,
"Nevertheless I tell you the truth;
It is expedient for you that I go away:
for if I go not away,
the Comforter will not come unto you;
but if I depart,
I will send him unto you.

"And when he is come,
he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

"Of sin,
because they believe not on me;

"Of righteousness,
because I go to my Father,
and ye see me no more;

"Of judgment,
because the prince of this world is judged.

"I have yet many things to say unto you,
but ye cannot bear them now.

"Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come,
he will guide you into all truth:
for he shall not speak of himself;
but whatsoever he shall hear,
that shall he speak:
and he will show you things to come.

"He shall glorify me:
for he shall receive of mine,
and shall show it unto you.

"All things that the Father hath
are mine:
therefore said I,
that he shall take of mine,
and shall show it unto you" (John 16:7-15).

God the Father is masculine, not feminine.
Like the Latin languages, the Greek has gender.
In Spanish, "el" is masculine, while "la" is feminine.
Hence, "el techo" is masculine, for "the roof," and "la casa" is feminine for "the house."

The Greek word translated "he" in this lengthy passage is from "ekeinos."
Of this word, the exhaustive concordance says,
"that one (or [neut.] thing); often intensified by the art.
Prefixed:--he, it, the other (same), selfsame, that (same, very), x their x them, they, this, those."

Notice carefully that "ekeinos" can just as easily be translated "it" as "he."
It can also be used to indicate "that one" or "that thing."

"He" in any language is a reflexive third-person pronoun, and can be applied in many, many ways.
In the Greek, it is "autos," and is used in the following ways:
"her, it (self), one, the other, (mine) own, said ([self], the] same, ([him, my, thy]) self, [your] selves, she, that, their (s), them ([selves]), there [at, by, in, into, of, on, with], they, (these) things, this (man), those, together, very, which."
(Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance,Greek Dictionary, No. 846).

BECAUSE one or another of these two words ARE USED IN CONNECTION WITH the Holy Spirit WHICH ISSUES FORTH FROM the Father, they are used in the masculine "He" in the passages appearing in John 16.

However, notice,
"For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear;
but ye have received the Spirit of adoption,
whereby we cry,
Abba, Father.

"The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit,
that WE ARE the children of God:

"And if children,
then heirs;
heirs of God,
and joint-heirs with Christ;
if so be
that we suffer with him,
that we may be also
glorified together" (Romans 8:15-17).

The word "itself" comes from the Greek "autos," and is a reflexive pronoun.

It is quite appropriately translated "itself" in this passage.

Notice the awesome MEANING of these beautiful words!

When we receive the Holy Spirit of God following repentance, accepting the shed blood of Christ, water baptism, and the laying on of hands, we are begotten of God, the Father!

Our spiritual FATHER is the FATHER; the same Father to Whom Jesus prayed, and the Father to Whom He returned!

We are NOT the "children of the Holy Spirit," as if a third person of a triumvirate had begotten us, but the children of God, the Father.
Christ is the first begotten of the Father, and He is the FIRSTBORN among MANY brethren (1 Corinthians 15:23; Romans 8:29).

This clearly shows that being "born of God" means exactly what it says;
that we are EVENTUALLY TO BE BORN AGAIN as a SPIRIT being, in the Divine Family of God!

The word "adoption" should be rendered "sonship," for it means much more than mere legal adoption.
It means becoming the actual begotten child; the BORN child of the parent!

Paul says this is why we cry "Abba," which means "FATHER."

Your human father is your literal, actual, real father,
not some vague, shadowy, ghost-like "mister in between."
It was your FATHER whose life-giving seed united with your mother to produce YOU.

In like fashion, the life-giving HOLY SPIRIT OF THE FATHER unites with your human spirit (erroneously called "the soul" by most)
which produces a ‘new creature in Christ" (2 Corinthians 5:17).
Christ is now our elder Brother, for He was the FIRST begotten of the same Father!

God’s Holy Spirit witnesses with our human spirit that we are now the "children of God!"

There is no "third person" active in this scenario!

The Biblical Analogies For The Holy Spirit

Had the Bible been written in our day,
the analogies used to convey to our minds the truth about the Holy Spirit might have included electricity, radio and television waves, or nuclear energy.
Instead, the analogies used in the Bible are air, wind, light, power, and water!

NEVER is the Person of the Father, or the Person of the Son spoken of as being "poured out."
But notice,
"And it shall come to pass afterward,
that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh;
and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy,
your old men shall dream dreams,
your young men shall see visions:

"And also upon the servants
and upon the handmaids
in those days will I pour out my spirit" (Joel 2:28, 29).
One pours water out of a vase.
Pouring is obvious reference to liquid, as water!

When Peter referred to this prophecy, the Holy Spirit had been manifested in at least four different ways;
as a "roaring, mighty wind;"
as "fire,"
as the gift of speaking with foreign languages,
and as liquid, as if being "poured out!"

Notice what Luke wrote
"And when the day of Pentecost was fully come,
they were all with one accord in one place.

"And suddenly there came a sound from heaven
as of a rushing mighty wind,
and it filled all the house where they were sitting.

"And there appeared unto them cloven [flickering flames, or "tongues" of fire, equally divided] tongues like as of fire,
and it sat upon each of them.

"And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost,
and began to speak with other tongues
[languages], as the Spirit gave them utterance.

"And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven.

"Now when this was noised abroad,
the multitude came together,
and were confounded,
because that every man heard them speak in his own language...
But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them,
Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem,
be this known unto you, and hearken to my words:

"For these are not drunken, as ye suppose,
seeing it is but the third hour of the day.

"But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;

"And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God,
I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh:
and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy,
and your young men shall see visions,
and your old men shall dream dreams:

"And on my servants
and on my handmaidens
I will pour out in those days
of my Spirit;
and they shall prophesy" (Acts 2:1-18).

Here, the Holy Spirit is analogous to sound, or noise; to water, to powerful wind, and to fire!
Water is the substance of LIFE!
Without water, there could be NO LIFE on earth.
You are mostly composed of water.

Baptism is a type of being "washed" free of sin by the power of the Holy Spirit!

Notice,
"Husbands,
love your wives,
even as Christ also loved the church,
and gave himself for it;

"That he might sanctify and cleanse it
with the washing of water
by the word
" (Ephesians 5:25-26).
The word of God "washes" the human mind free from sin, even as one washes dirty laundry.
Water, that greatest of all solvents over a period of time; that life-sustaining substance, is used as an analogy of God’s Holy Spirit.

When Peter had to learn that God was opening the way to salvation to the Gentiles,
he rehearsed how the house of Cornelius and other Gentiles had repented, and been begotten of God:
"And as I began to speak,
the Holy Spirit fell on them,
as on us at the beginning.

"Then remembered I
the word of the Lord,
how that he said,
John indeed baptized with water;
but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit.

"Forasmuch then
as God gave them the like gift
as he did unto us,
who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ;
what was I,
that I could withstand God?" (Acts 11:15-17).

Expressions such as "falling upon," or "clothed with," or "poured out," or "baptized with" are used of the Holy Spirit
in order to convey the invisible POWER of God;
His mind, His purpose, His life-giving power; His nature; His Divine Character!

Notice that each Christian is said to be "begotten of the Holy Spirit!"

None of the adherents to the FALSE DOCTRINE of the Trinity
argues that the Father is anyone OTHER THAN the Father of Christ,
the distinct FATHER of their so-called "Trinity!"

Then, notice what Christ said ABOUT our Father in heaven:
"And when thou prayest,
thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are:
for they love to pray STANDING IN the synagogues and in the corners of the streets,
that THEY MAY BE SEEN OF MEN.
Verily I say unto you,
They HAVE their reward.

"But thou, when thou prayest,
enter into thy closet,
and when thou hast SHUT THY DOOR, pray to thy Father
which is IN SECRET;
and thy Father
which seeth IN SECRET
shall reward thee OPENLY.

"But when ye pray,
use NOT vain repetitions,
as the heathen do:
for they think
that they shall be heard
for their MUCH speaking.

"Be not ye therefore like unto them:
for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of,
BEFORE ye ask him.

"After this manner therefore pray ye:
Our Father which art in heaven,
Hallowed be thy name.

"Thy kingdom come.
Thy will be done in earth,
as it is in heaven..." (Matthew 6:5-10).

By WHOM, or by what POWER were we begotten of God?
IF the Holy Spirit is a "PERSON" then each Christian is praying to the WRONG FATHER!

The Father is the Great God of the Divine Elohim, of Whom Christ said,
"My Father is GREATER than I!"

Christ prayed to His Father.
We are to pray to the same Father!

Christ is said to have been like a "Replica," or the "stamped impress"; a perfect COPY of the Father!
He said, "If you have seen me, you have seen the Father."

Notice,
"God, who at sundry times and in divers manners
spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,

"Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son,
whom he hath appointed heir of all things,
by whom also he made the worlds;

"Who being the brightness of his glory,
and the express image of his person,
and upholding all things
by the word of his power,
when he had by himself
purged our sins,
sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

"Being made so much better than the angels,
as he hath by inheritance
obtained a more excellent name than they.

"For unto which of the angels said he at any time,
Thou art my Son,
this day have I begotten thee?
And again,
I will be to him a Father,
and he shall be to me a Son? (Hebrews 1:1-5).

Who said he had begotten Jesus Christ?
Why, the FATHER said this!

Then the SPIRITUAL AGENCY by which such a miracle occurred was that of the Holy Spirit!
NOT a "separate person" of the Godhead at all,
but the life-giving POWER OF ALMIGHTY GOD THE FATHER!

Jesus Christ did NOT come to make His Father a darkened, incomprehensible MYSTERY!

Christ came to REVEAL the Father.
The FALSE doctrine of the trinity sees a CLOSED Godhead,
and DENIES that you or I CAN BECOME THE CHILDREN OF God the Father!

The "incomprehensible MYSTERY of the so-called "trinity" makes millions of people ASSUME
"God" is unknowable; unapproachable
except through ELABORATE RITUAL, "way off" somewhere in the blackness of space.

But Jesus Christ came to REVEAL God the Father;
to EXPLAIN THE PURPOSE of life,
and TO OFFER SALVATION TO ALL those who will BELIEVE what He said!


Christ cried out,
"Why call ye me, ‘Lord,’ ‘Lord,’
and do NOT the things which I say?" (Luke 6:46).

Christ commanded,
"REPENT ye,
and believe the Gospel!"

The Gospel is the GOOD NEWS of the soon-coming world-ruling Kingdom of God!
The Gospel is the very BEST news you could ever hear!

Then to address your THIRD QUESTION:

"And you apparently think,
and please correct me if I am wrong on this point,
that the Scripture
"...who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? "in 1 Corinthians 2:11
is referring to demonic sprits
(as you apparently stated in post #95). "

Not at all.
You comment at the bottom of comment #94

"In scripture, as far as I can tell, man NEVER HAS a "spirit" OTHER THAN the one given to Christians....the holy spirit."

I was simply pointing out that the Bible has shown that man HAS HAD OTHER KINDS of "spirits".
But I was NOT suggesting that demonic sprits are THE ONLY spirits in men.
After looking back at Comment #94, I went back to comment #89and saw that the comment was actually made by DouglasKC.
So I don't know WHAT you were trying to point out to him, on that subject.

[DouglasKC]

Where is Christ now? When Paul refers to our body as an "earthly house" and a "tent", and says that while we are at home inside our bodies, we are absent from the Lord, and that he would rather depart and be with Christ, does that mean that Christ is in the ground where Paul would go to his grave?

Christ went to the grave for 3 days and 3 nights and then was resurrected to glory. The same happens for us except we stay in the grave until Christ returns and then are resurrected to glory at his return.

Joh 5:28 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice
Joh 5:29 and come forth— those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.

This matches with:

Dan_12:2 And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, Some to everlasting life, Some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Even if you think what Jesus taught in Luke 16 is merely figurative, or representative of something else, would Jesus teach something using an absurd example that had no connections with reality, was false and contrary to Scripture? That would be like Jesus saying that the Kingdom of Heaven is like a rock that a man threw in a cave and it grew up and became the greatest of all camels.

Jesus did exactly that....he spoke in parables so that many would not understand. Lazarus and the rich man is a parable aimed at non-believers, Pharisees. Not at believers. In order to take it literally we would have to dismiss every other scripture (dozens and dozens) that refer to resurrections when Christ returns and death as sleep.

There are aspects of salvation that are past, present and future. The last time and the resurrection of our bodies are aspects of our salvation that are in the future. However, Scripture also speaks of eternal life in the present, as a present possession.

There are basically two aspects of salvation. Christ came the first time to "save" us from our sins. And he will come the second time to give Christians eternal life.

Heb 9:26 He then would have had to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now, once at the end of the ages, He has appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself.
Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment,
Heb 9:28 so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation.

Christ came the first time to take away sin. The second will be to give eternal life. It's a huge subject by itself.

First time:

Mat_1:21 And she will bring forth a Son, and you shall call His name JESUS, for He will save His people from their sins."

Often when God talks about being saved in the present tense in scripture he's referring to being saved from our sins...which belief in Christ should do for us. We're freed from sin.

Rom 6:22 But now having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life.
Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Again Christ came the first time to save us from sin. He will come the second time to give Christians eternal life.

In scripture, as far as I can tell, man never has a "spirit" other than the one given to Christians....the holy spirit. I guess Paul didn't get the memo: 1 Corinthians 2:11 New American Standard Bible (NASB) For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so the thoughts of God no one knows except the Spirit of God.

The rest of the verses put this in better context:

1Co 2:11 For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God.
1Co 2:12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God.
1Co 2:13 These things we also speak, not in words which man's wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
1Co 2:14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Paul isn't teaching that man has an eternal spirit here. Just the opposite. He uses the term "spirit" of man, spirit of the world, and natural man interchangebly to contrast it with the spirit of God. The natural man cannot comprehend spiritual things.

Take care...

[Diamond]

Thank you for writing.

I wrote:

Even if you think what Jesus taught in Luke 16 is merely figurative, or representative of something else, would Jesus teach something using an absurd example that had no connections with reality, was false and contrary to Scripture? That would be like Jesus saying that the Kingdom of Heaven is like a rock that a man threw in a cave and it grew up and became the greatest of all camels.

I think you missed my point in your reply:

Jesus did exactly that....he spoke in parables so that many would not understand. Lazarus and the rich man is a parable aimed at non-believers, Pharisees. Not at believers. In order to take it literally we would have to dismiss every other scripture (dozens and dozens) that refer to resurrections when Christ returns and death as sleep.

Before I state the point again, let me parenthetically say that "sleep" was a metaphor or a euphemism for death. It refers to the appearance of the body, for it says in Scripture, "Whether we are awake or asleep, we may live together with Him." (1 Thessalonians 5:10). Keep in mind that Jesus refuted the Sadducees who believed as you do that the dead cease to exist, by proving that the dead do exist: "He is not the God of the dead, but of the living; for all live to Him." (Luke 20:38)

But back to my point. Let me fully grant for 60 seconds your assumption that Lazarus and the rich man is a parable aimed at non-believers and that it is not to be taken literally. Ok. Make it about Israel and the Gentiles; whatever you want. You still did not answer my question, which is, WHY would Jesus teach something using word pictures that had no connection with reality and were moreover contrary to supposedly Scriptural teaching?

After all, there really are:

Sowers
Grains of wheat
Weeds
Fishing nets
Fig trees
Birds
Flowers
Vultures
Weather Signs
Employers
Laborer and wages
Masters and Servants
Money
Lamps
etc.

Grains of wheat are not planted in the air that grow up into giraffes.

Do you see my point? WHY would Jesus teach something in Luke 16 using word pictures that were (on your assumptions) unreal and bizarre, and supposedly contrary to Scriptural teaching?

Cordially,

[Diamond]

After looking back at Comment #94, I went back to comment #89and saw that the comment was actually made by DouglasKC.
So I don't know WHAT you were trying to point out to him, on that subject.

Yes, you are correct - my apologies for misattributing that post to you.

Someone much more experienced than me, a retired air traffic controller, wrote very good dissertation on this years ago. Here's aan excerpt of that article:

I read your lengthy excerpt and when I looked at the link I found that the article was written by the late, serial adulterer Garner Ted Armstrong. I prefer A.T. Robertson as a reliable enough source regarding ekeinos.

"Two passages in John call for a remark, inasmuch as they bear on the personality of the Holy Spirit. In 14:26...the relative ho follows the grammatical gender of pneuma. Ekeinos, however, skips over pneuma and reverts to the gender of parakletos. In 16:13 a more striking example occurs...Here one has to back six lines to ekeinos again and seven to parakletos. It is more evident therefore in this passage that John is insisting on the personality of the Holy Spirit, when the grammatical gender so easily called for ekeino. Cf. ho in Jo. 14:17,26 and auto in 14:17."
Source: A.T. Robertson, A Grammar of the Greek New Testament in Light of Historical Research (George H. Doran Co., NY, 1923, pp. 708-709)

Cordially,

[Yosemitest]

The messenger's human flaws, doesn't change the strength of the content, from the sources he referenced, and most of the scripture, I think I linked to.

Check out Immigration and the Christian: The Balance of the Welcome and the Wall.
It's the first time I've considered Todd Wagner as a source.