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To: JOAT

What always amazes me about Protestants when they attack Catholic doctrines is how typical it is that they don’t even understand what it is they are attacking.

You wrote:

“Here Peter is by your church’s proclamation ‘Pope’ and is getting called out for teaching ERROR.”

And there are two errors there - but they’re both yours:

1) Peter was not defining doctrine for the whole Church nor making it binding on the whole Church. This was in one city and could not have effected more than a relative handful of people.

2) What teaching? It says “[Peter] began to draw back and separate himself from the Gentiles because he was afraid of those who belonged to the circumcision group.”

That’s an action, not a teaching. And it says he was afraid. Duress does not allow for much of a free choice.

“When I saw that they were not acting in line with the truth of the gospel....”

Acting, not teaching the whole Church a teaching that is binding on all the faithful.

you wrote:

“By the way he repents, so everything’s good, but the fact remains he was NOT infallible while in the role of ‘pope’”

And no one is claiming he was infallible all of the time as pope. Do you even know what papal infallibility is? You keep attacking things it isn’t.

“Actually I believe based on the source document (the Bible) whereas you cling to the teachings/traditions of men,”

False. If you believed in scripture, you would not believe in sola scriptura because it isn’t in there. The traditions I believe in come from Christ and His Church, not men. Scripture is part of that tradition.

“that are vastly different than what the Word of God reveals.”

Again, false.

“My source (bible) is far older than your fabrication.”

I have no fabrication. The Church wrote the New Testament. My Church is older than your New Testament.

“Are you sure you want to claim men over the scripture?”

Show me where I have. You can’t because I never have. Why are you resorting to bearing false witness? Don’t you know that that violates scripture?

“Your church came into existence in it’s form after the Emperor Constantine molded it to look like his government, replete with offices like pope, cardinal et al.”

False. When Constantine entered Rome he met the pope. The papacy already existed. How can you not know this? He did not “mold” it. He tried and failed after the Council of Nicea. That’s why he and his sons embraced Arianism. Didn’t you know about that?

“The original church found in scripture looked nothing like this.”

Actually it looked similar: Apostles/Bishops, priests (elders), deacons. Those are still the three orders of authority in the Church.

“Read Titus and Timothy if you want to find out how God structured His church.”

Already have, a number of times. That’s one the reasons why I am not making your mistakes.


91 posted on 11/11/2014 4:27:58 PM PST by vladimir998
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To: vladimir998
Actually it looked similar: Apostles/Bishops, priests (elders), deacons. Those are still the three orders of authority in the Church.

Well, you're getting warmer.

Prior to 'Romanizing' the existing church into a giant hierarchy, there were local elders/bishops/presbyters who shepherded the local church, and deacons who served the local flock. That is why Paul would meet with each city eldership, not some phoney 'top dog' who ran the church like a business.

“So when they had appointed elders in every church, and prayed with fasting, they commended them to the Lord in whom they had believed” (Acts 14:23).

“If a man desires the position of a bishop, he desires a good work” (I Timothy 3:1). “For this reason I left you in Crete, that you should set in order the things that are lacking, and appoint elders in every city as I commanded you” (Titus 1:5).

“From Miletus he sent to Ephesus and called for the elders of the church. ... Therefore take heed to yourselves and to all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood” (Acts 20:17, 28).

The concept of 'priest' becomes murky, however.

Scripture declares WE are a royal priesthood, not some separate division of designated people. (1 Peter 2:5-9)

This is the essence of the 'good news' aka gospel, that we are no longer separated from God, but can approach His throne boldly through the High Priest Jesus Christ. (Hebrew 4:14-16) I don't need an intermediary (priest) I AM a priest according to God's Word.

Anyway back to your history.

The local control devolved for the next 2 centuries and slowly local elders (bishops/shepherds/presbyters) became 'bishops' over more than one congregation. Finally one bishop ruled them all.

Was this God's plan?

Absolutely not.

So THEN Constantine rolled in and met a bogus official who was said to speak for all of christendom.

So yes, sorry for leaving out the critical first 2-300 year period where the christian church started to veer away from scriptural teaching, giving rise to a supreme leader aka 'pope.'

So, you seem to be denying that Constantine radically altered the church to make it align with a government type power structure, and therefore easier to control.

Is that correct?

Because the quoted references refer to EVERY city having leadership, not ONE CITY.

How is a 'pope' in line with the Bible then? Or do you persist in saying the traditions of men are equal to God's Word?

Jesus had a problem with that stance BTW:

Mark 7:5 So the Pharisees and teachers of the law asked Jesus, “Why don’t your disciples live according to the tradition of the elders instead of eating their food with defiled hands?” 6 He replied, “Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you hypocrites; as it is written: “‘These people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me. 7 They worship me in vain; their teachings are merely human rules.' 8 You have let go of the commands of God and are holding on to human traditions.” 9 And he continued, “You have a fine way of setting aside the commands of God in order to observe your own traditions! 10 For Moses said, ‘Honor your father and mother,’ and, ‘Anyone who curses their father or mother is to be put to death.’ 11 But you say that if anyone declares that what might have been used to help their father or mother is Corban (that is, devoted to God)— 12 then you no longer let them do anything for their father or mother. 13 Thus you nullify the word of God by your tradition that you have handed down. And you do many things like that.”

Jesus, (you know, our master) says that setting aside commands in favor of traditions (man made not delivered by God) is why people are identified as hypocrites when they want to seem holy.

You keep calling me a 'Protestant' evidently because anyone not in the giant corporation called Catholicism is one, in your world.

No, I am simply a 'christian' following Jesus in a local congregation with local leadership following what we find in God's revealed word only.

Your 'church' killed people like me that predate you, anyone who would not bow the knee to your man made office of 'pope.'

They hunted us down and wiped out nearly all the independent christians who had the temerity to follow the original church pattern.

The 'Protest-ants' came along much later as a response to the rottenness they saw such as selling indulgences and the like.

So no, I'm not a protestant, I don't want to 'reform' the catholic church. I want catholics to COME HOME as we so often hear these days. COME HOME to Jesus only and His revealed Word.

In fact He is the WORD made flesh according John chapter 1.

That's enough for this post.

Now that I'm home from work I will dig into my Bible and address some of your other...thoughts.

103 posted on 11/11/2014 5:21:17 PM PST by JOAT
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