Posted on 10/27/2014 10:02:19 AM PDT by Colofornian
You know..T.P. if you to a middle chart at a link...you can find over a dozen Mormon authoritative references to this: Mormon Tabernacle Choir conductor: 'Praise to the Man'...hymn praises Joseph Smith [Smithmas vanity]
I find it rather difficult to believe...that had you lived in SLC circa pre civil war & early civil war times ... you would tell a certain tabernacle speaker ... nope you are statin a falsity upon sayin...: no man or woman in this dispensation will ever enter into the celestial kingdom of God without the consent of Joseph Smith. From the day that the Priesthood was taken from the earth to the winding-up scene of all things, every man and woman must have the certificate of Joseph Smith, junior, as a passport to their entrance into the mansion where God and Christ are—I with you and you with me. I cannot go there without his consent. He holds the keys of that kingdom for the last dispensation—the keys to rule in the spirit world;
Or...1974...as deseret book co...owned by ldsism...said: Deseret Book Co. publishes a book of discourses and writings of one of its top three hierarchists from the 19th century, George Q. Cannon, who announces: "If we get our salvation, we shall have to pass by him [Joseph Smith]; if we enter our glory, it will be through the authority he has received. We cannot get around him [Joseph Smith]" (Lds "apostle" George Q. Cannon) Editor Jerreld L. Newquist, Gospel Truth: Discourses and Writings of President George Q. Cannon, Vol. 1, p. 255 Deseret Book Co.
Anybody looking at the linked chart I provided last post about lds “prophets” and first presidents referencing Smith as being the heavenly kingdom “passport” or “consenter” or kingDom “certificate” provider or as the absolute one we need to confess alongside Jesus would be quite bewildered if you had been there during any of those public statements when they were made had you said to each leader...”well what you are claiming is not ‘technically true’”...you see you must think you can get away with making this an issue about me and my alleged misinterpretation...when anybody taking these statements at face value...in context and even not if these words are to carry basic straightforward meaning...can see for themselves what these leaders claimed about smith...throw thsee leaders under the bus if you must...stop blaming me for their having been historically uttered
Mitt Romney has made this vow, which IMO precludes his worthiness to become POTUS...and the electorage agreed.
I think there is a ventriloquist hanging out with you. Someone just put words in Mrs. Elsies mouth. And I know the old goat.
I was very careful when bringing up the 100%s to not suggest that you were one of them. But somehow you appear to think that I was, and use that misunderstanding to suggesting I am lying.
You are the one that is taking what I said personally. I specifically worded it to not include you or anyone specific. I said "some of the posters here". Seems that you might be over sensitive to the claim.
...I at least attempt not to misrepresent what other FReepers have said - LOL
I love how you claim that my non-specific statement was making it personal, and then you make it directly personal towards me. With the standards applied by the Religion Moderator, I try to be very careful not to "read minds" or attribute motive.
Hey, guy.
Driving to Colorado next week, hows the weather generally on the 70?
The first week of November, its 300 miles longer going the 40.
T.P. PLEASE take note of ALL of the Lds "scriptures" & Lds leaders comments that follow re: tithing. (And whoever else reads, read, mark, learn, digest, etc. how a false obfuscation goes on here...I don't know if it's all intentional or not...I just have a tough time believing that somebody like T.P. would be as unaware of these Mormonosities as what follows):
When I go to my trusty 1977 Deseret Book Co. A Topical Guide to the Scriptures of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints"...for its entry on "tithing" (p. 459), I find 16 Biblical references that Mormon leaders have made re: this word/subject...plus two from the Book of Mormon (Alma 13:15 and 3 Nephi 24:8 re: "robbing" God in "tithes and offerings") + four verses in the Lds "scriptures" of Doctrine & Covenants:
* for he that is tithed shall not be burned at his... (D&C 64:23) Lds.org cites D&C 64:23 thusly: “In the present dispensation, the law of tithing was revived, and the keeping of that law is one of the FIRST duties of the Latter-day Saints. September 11, 1831, about eighteen months after the organization of the church, the Lord, through Joseph, the Seer, made this important declaration. Speaking after the manner of the Lord, he called ‘today,’ from the giving of the revelation until the coming of the Son of Man, and said, ‘Verily, it is a day of sacrifice, and a day for the tithing of my people; for he that is tithed shall not be burned at His coming. For after today cometh the burning,’ that is, at the coming of the Son of Man, ‘for verily I say, tomorrow’ – that is, at the Lord’s coming – ‘all the proud and they that do wickedly shall be as stubble; and I will burn them up, for I am the Lord of Hosts.” (D&C 64:23, 24.)
Are you seriously unaware of these two D&C passages, T.P.?
T.P....before I stated in post #5 -- what you somehow objected to above -- re: (2) You HAVE TO tithe -- what Lds reference as the "Law of consecration"...I made-sure I did almost a whole day's research several years ago before elaborating. How did I accomplish that?
I spent a goodly amount of time reviewing the word "laws" and dozens & dozens of contexts as how that word was contextualized in various articles at Lds.org. My conclusion? If you look at Lds.org like I did -- in fact, EVERY single entry -- they have for carrying out their various add-on "Laws" -- guess what two add-on "laws" get the most mentions by Lds, Inc?
It's near a tie:
(1) The Law of Tithing (yes, also known as the Law of Consecration)
(2) The Law of Chastity
T.P. Are you now claiming that Lds.org isn't very "authoritative" for you or other Mormons?
* Joseph Fielding Smith states: “In the stead of this higher law [the law of consecration], the Lord gave to the Saints a schoolmaster, as he did ancient Israel to teach them and bring them to the fulness of the gospel of Christ. This is the law of tithing.
* “The law of tithing, as embodied in the revelations referred to, [in Sec. 119], is an immutable decree of Jehovah to His people, and admits of no evasion by those who would enjoy the blessings of the faithful on the land of Zion, or be classed among the righteous, and avoid the burning at the coming of our Lord.” (Principles of the Gospel, pp. 174-177.)
(T.P. "immutable = unchanging)
* Other revealed doctrines at the root of our religion include the Creation, the Resurrection, the law of tithing, prayer, and the consummate blessings of the temple. (Russell Nelson, official Lds church publication Liahona May 2004)
This Mormon link is now inactive...but listed "The Law of Tithing" as a key Mormon commandment...among...
The Commandments
Obedience to God's Commandments
Pray Often
Study the Scriptures
Keep the Sabbath Day Holy
Baptism and Confirmation
Follow the Prophet
Live the Law of Chastity
Obey the Word of Wisdom
Live the Law of Tithing
Observe the Law of the Fast
Obey and Honor the Law
* Law of consecration or The Law of Tithing: Definition: “The law of tithing is the law of revenue for the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.” (Teachings of the President of the Church: Joseph F. Smith) Joseph F. Smith on law of tithing
* Why Instituted
We know of no better statement as to why the Lord revealed the law of tithing than that made by President Joseph F. Smith at the general conference of the Church in April, 1900. “Why the Law of Tithing Was Instituted – The Lord revealed to his people in the incipiency of his work a law which was more perfect than the law of tithing. It comprehended larger things, greater power, and a more speedy accomplishment of the purposes of the Lord. But the people were unprepared to live by it, and the Lord, out of mercy to the people, suspended the more perfect law [the law of consecration and stewardship], and gave the law of tithing, in order that there might be means in the storehouse of the Lord for the carrying out of the purposes he had in view; for the gathering of the poor, for the spreading of the gospel to the nations of the earth, for the maintenance of those who were required to give their constant attention, day in and day out, to the work of the Lord, and for whom it was necessary to make some provision. Without this law these things could not be done, neither could temples be built and maintained, nor the poor fed and clothed. Therefore the law of tithing is necessary for the Church, so much so that the Lord has laid great stress upon it.” (Lds "prophet" Joseph F. Smith, Gospel Doctrine, p. 282.)
* “The law of tithing, is a test by which the people as individuals shall be proved. Any man who fails to observe this principle shall be known as a man who is indifferent to the welfare of Zion, who neglects his duty as a member of the church, and who does nothing toward the accomplishment of the temporal advancement of the kingdom of God. He contributes nothing, either, towards spreading the gospel to the nations of the earth, and he neglects to do that which would entitle him to receive the blessings and ordinances of the gospel.” (Lds "prophet" Joseph F. Smith, Gospel Doctrine, p. 283.) ….
* Prosperity Comes to Those Who Obey the Law
“The law of financial prosperity to the Latter-day Saints, under covenant with God, is to be an honest tithe payer, and not to rob the Lord in tithes and offerings. Prosperity comes to those who observe the law of tithing. When I say prosperity I am not thinking of it in terms of dollars and cents alone, although as a rule the Latter-day Saints who are the best tithe payers are the most prosperous men, financially. But what I call as real prosperity, as the one thing of all others that is of great value to every man and woman living, is the growth in a knowledge of God, and in a testimony, and in the power to live the gospel and to inspire our families to do the same.” (Lds "prophet" Heber J. Grant, Gospel Standards, p. 58.)
(There's MANY other references contained in Lds.org...the above should suffice)
Leave Dunham outta this!
I can be a dummy on my own!
From where?
Look at your number 4. The law of consecration is described as a higher law. And in stead of the higher law, the saints were given a [lower] law to teach them. Sort of to prepare them for the higher law.
I have to admit your Joseph F Smith quote puzzled me, especially since that is a dead link. So I went and found a direct link to the manual - here. The word "consecration" is not in that chapter. The quote you have is about halfway down the page (with the footnote marker #9). I am thinking you created the heading "Law of consecration or The Law of Tithing: Definition:" for your own notes. It is not in the original.
As I said, my true statement that "law of consecration" does not equal "law of tithing" did not change the point you were making in your posting - that there are a lot of rules in Mormonism. That indeed is true, and the law of tithing is one of them. Never said otherwise.
I would say that it is pretty good. Are you coming through Vegas? If so take a side trip through Zion National Park and over to meet Highway 89. A very beautiful route to 70 this time of year. You can stop in here and say hello....
California
The problem with this statement right out of the gate is that when a mormon or a defender accuses a dissenter of mormonISM of lying and challenged on it, there is usually no reply or response...a couple of posters come to mind. In effect, they've lied in order to accuse someone else of lying...
In addition, lies of ommission are just as bad as an outright falsehood...would you agree?
...and get a hat and coffee!
Number 10...
|
Temple Recommend Questions
1 Do you have faith in and a testimony of God the Eternal Father, His Son Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost? 2 Do you have a testimony of the Atonement of Christ and of His role as Savior and Redeemer? 3 Do you have a testimony of the restoration of the gospel in these the latter days? 4 Do you sustain the President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints as the Prophet, Seer, and Revelator and as the only person on the earth who possesses and is authorized to exercise all priesthood keys? Do you sustain members of the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles as prophets, seers, and revelators? Do you sustain the other General Authorities and local authorities of the Church? 5 Do you live the law of chastity? 6 Is there anything in your conduct relating to members of your family that is not in harmony with the teachings of the Church? 7 Do you support, affiliate with, or agree with any group or individual whose teachings or practices are contrary to or oppose those accepted by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints? 8 Do you strive to keep the covenants you have made, to attend your sacrament and other meetings, and to keep your life in harmony with the laws and commandments of the gospel? 9 Are you honest in your dealings with your fellowmen? 10 Are you a full-tithe payer? 11 Do you keep the Word of Wisdom? 12 Do you have financial or other obligations to a former spouse or children? If yes, are you current in meeting those obligations? 13 If you have previously received your temple endowment: Do you keep the covenants that you made in the temple? Do you wear the garment both night and day as instructed in the endowment and in accordance with the covenant you made in the temple? 14 Have there been any sins or misdeeds in your life that should have been resolved with priesthood authorities but have not been? 15 Do you consider yourself worthy to enter the Lord's house and participate in temple ordinances? |
It does get weird around here. Unfortunately there are those on both sides that aren’t completely accurate in their statements. I do, however, excuse most of them as ignorance. Thankfully it appears that there are very few that maliciously do this.
I was working on a longer answer, but decided against it. Not really any value to bringing up old issues.
Understood...I try to ensure accuracy and to limit anecdotals...and if needing correction, I am open to it.
FRegards,
SZ
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