Why would anyone become Catholic?

https://www.indiegogo.com ^ | October 2, 2014 | Indiegogo

[NKP_Vet]

Why would intelligent, successful people give up their careers, alienate their friends, and cause havoc in their families...to become Catholic? Indeed, why would anyone become Catholic?

As an evangelist and author who recently threw my own life into some turmoil by deciding to enter the Catholic Church, I've faced this question a lot lately. That is one reason I decided to make this documentary; it's part of my attempt to try to explain to those closest to me why I would do such a crazy thing.

Convinced isn't just about me, though. The film is built around interviews with some of the most articulate and compelling Catholic converts in our culture today, including Scott Hahn, Francis Beckwith, Taylor Marshall, Holly Ordway, Abby Johnson, Jeff Cavins, Devin Rose, Matthew Leonard, Mark Regnerus, Jason Stellman, John Bergsma, Christian Smith, Kevin Vost, David Currie, Richard Cole, and Kenneth Howell. It also contains special appearances by experts in the field of conversion such as Patrick Madrid and Donald Asci.

Ultimately, this is a story about finding truth, beauty, and fulfillment in an unexpected place, and then sacrificing to grab on to it. I think it will entertain and inspire you, and perhaps even give you a fresh perspective on an old faith.

[St_Thomas_Aquinas]

I’m amazed at the SILENCE when Catholics are asked, begged and pleaded with to PLEASE show us just what TRADITIONS they have that are NEEDED for Salvation.

Here's one: The Church possesses the infallible teaching authority given to it by Christ.

"Listen to the church... If he won't listen to the church, treat him as a pagan or tax collector." --Jesus

OTOH, "the Bible alone is the SOLE rule of faith" isn't in the Bible.

Another Tradition is the canon of Scripture.

The Church has the Christ-given authority to determine the canon of Scripture.

How do Protestants determine the canon of Scripture infallibly?

"The Bible is a fallible collection of infallible books." --R.C. Sproul (Protestant)

[Resettozero]

Previously on FR religion thread, I posted the following to two FR defenders of the RCC as the only true church. These two posters are still unavailable for comment. Would you please address this?...

Jesus Christ, His step-father Joseph, His mother Mary, all the Disciples including Peter, and virtually ALL of the first members of the Holy Catholic Church who were present on that particular Day of Pentecost (plus most if not all of the 3000 in Jerusalem who were converted and baptised that day)...were Jews.

Why does the RCC, including the Pontiffs in my lifetime, not support Jews and minister directly to Jews instead of to the enemies of Judah and Israel?

Why is support of the Jews not a significant part of RCC Holy Tradition?

[CynicalBear]

I believe these people spoke Geek as well.

Revelation 3:1 To the angel[a] of the church in Sardis write: These are the words of him who holds the seven spirits[b] of God and the seven stars. I know your deeds; you have a reputation of being alive, but you are dead.

And these as well.

Revelation 2:1 To the angel of the church in Ephesus write: These are the words of him who holds the seven stars in his right hand and walks among the seven golden lampstands. 2 I know your deeds, your hard work and your perseverance. I know that you cannot tolerate wicked people, that you have tested those who claim to be apostles but are not, and have found them false. 3 You have persevered and have endured hardships for my name, and have not grown weary. 4 Yet I hold this against you: You have forsaken the love you had at first. 5 Consider how far you have fallen! Repent and do the things you did at first. If you do not repent, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place.

It seems that just speaking Greek isn't any guarantee.

[daniel1212]

So you see it is error to judge the full sense of the grammatical unit simply by the linking verb standing alone.

Which type of thing is why translation is not the work of one day or two, while more definitive of such a text as Mt. 16:19 is by observing how this is manifested in the rest of Scripture. How do we see binding and loosing, and by whom? Was the uniquely a NT phenomenon.

Briefly, we see God allowing the devil to bind Job via physical affliction, and God loosing him - after he prayed for his expert theological "friends" (indicating forgiving them), and likewise "ought not this woman, being a daughter of Abraham, whom Satan hath bound, lo, these eighteen years, be loosed from this bond on the sabbath day?" (Luke 13:16)

And Paul, when the church was gathered together, delivered the incestuous man "unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh," that thru the repentance this work, "the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus." (1 Corinthians 5:5)

When this repentance had been accomplished, the congregation as a congregation was enjoined to forgive the man, "Sufficient to such a man is this punishment, which was inflicted of many. So that contrariwise ye ought rather to forgive him, and comfort him, lest perhaps such a one should be swallowed up with overmuch sorrow." (2 Corinthians 2:6,7)

This was not to bring the soul to practical moral perfection so he could enter Heaven or to atone for sin, contrary to the premise of purgatory, but to bring the man to walk in saving faith, which is what appropriates justification, and thus God motivate repentance, contrary to antinomianism.

But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world. (1 Corinthians 11:32)

Of course, there is also chastisement of Godly persons in order to further conform them to Christ, like righteous Job, which only occurs in this world with its temptations and trials, and thus it was here that the Lord was made "perfect," in the sense being tempted in all points like as we are, yet without sin. (Heb. 4:15)

Both the binding and loosing was corporately to be done as the sin defiled the body of Christ, and "If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are. (1 Corinthians 3:17) And thus Peter bound the deceivers of the body unto death in Acts 5.

We see a further connection with forgiveness and healing in the case of the man which "was taken with a palsy," whom the Lord, in response to the faith (not the money) of the man's friends, forgave/healed the man, forgiveness meaning the chastisement the man's sins (which could include sins of ignorance) incurred was lifted, and thus forgiveness meant healing.

Whether is easier, to say, Thy sins be forgiven thee; or to say, Rise up and walk? But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power upon earth to forgive sins, (he said unto the sick of the palsy,) I say unto thee, Arise, and take up thy couch, and go into thine house. (Luke 5:23-24)

We also see Paul binding a man with blindness for a season in Acts 13, and Elijah binding the sky that it would not rain for 3.5 years.(1Ki 17:1).

Coming to James 5, he addresses the situation of sickness in the body, and in which case the exhortation "let him call" is to "call for the elders [presbuteros] of the church," thus indicating the sick was an invalid. And it is elders plural that are to be called, with healing thru intercessory prayer being connected to forgiveness as with the palsied man,

And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him. (James 5:15)

Therefore Catholicism is eliminated from this text, as it is presbuteros who are called, and absolutely nowhere is any NT pastor titled "priest" (“hiereus”) apart from the priesthood of all believers, nor is that what presbuteros means (contrary the etymological fallacy that makes presbuteros into a distinctive class of priest based on imposed functional equivalence), nor are NT pastors shown engaging any uniquely sacrificial function such as changing bread into flesh and dispensing it.

In addition, this means of obtaining deliverance is nowhere set forth as a normative practice for all, but is for an invalid and who calls for the elders, plural, and which is to result in healing. But in Catholicism this sppsd sacrament is typically a precursor to death, thus it is contrary to forgiveness and healing going together.

And most likely the sins here were those of ignorance, with forgiveness meaning God will no longer chastise one for something. Following Christ, Stephan "kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep." (Acts 7:60)

While the believer who confesses sins with a repentant heart obtains forgiveness, as even David with his capital crimes obtained, yet there are situations wherein a believer is being chastened for sins he carelessly committed and ignored, or was ignorant of. And as God has confected the organic body of Christ (the church) to be much interdependent, so He has regard for intercessory prayer which can obtain deliverance in such cases (as well as for prayer to change hearts to seek forgiveness, etc.).

In addition, this means of obtaining deliverance thru prayer is not limited to the elders, for as James continues,

Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much. (James 5:16)

And for which he invokes the example of Elijah who bound and loosed the heavens, for while being "a man subject to like passions as we are, and he prayed earnestly that it might not rain: and it rained not on the earth by the space of three years and six months. And he prayed again, and the heaven gave rain, and the earth brought forth her fruit." (James 5:17-18)

Thus it is clear that "whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven" (Matthew 16:19) applies to all effectual fervent prayer of righteous believers. Which we need more of and to be so.

[aMorePerfectUnion]

Here's one: The Church possesses the infallible teaching authority given to it by Christ.

"Listen to the church... If he won't listen to the church, treat him as a pagan or tax collector." --Jesus

Ah, still posting this verse, wrested from its rightful context of the LOCAL church arbitrating between two believers involved in a dispute. As such, it doesn't say anything about tradition.

OTOH, "the Bible alone is the SOLE rule of faith" isn't in the Bible.

Scripture alone testifies of itself that it is inspired by God and sufficient for teaching, reproof and correction to mature believers. Scripture itself testifies it feeds the soul. There is no other source testified to by Scripture. Why would anyone accept anything less than what God's Spirit moved men to write as the final rule of faith?

Another Tradition is the canon of Scripture.

The Church has the Christ-given authority to determine the canon of Scripture.

Well, not anywhere in Scripture did Christ give authority to determine the canon.

How do Protestants determine the canon of Scripture infallibly?

"The Bible is a fallible collection of infallible books." --R.C. Sproul (Protestant)

I don't always agree with Sproul, but in this instance, he is correct. God has worked in history, through men to identify Scripture. Sometimes men make mistakes. Just look at what had to be removed from the canon.

[daniel1212]

Prophets, priests and kings are all anointed; authority itself, per se, pertains to God; and the "powers that be"" are ordained of God, as St. Paul says.

True, except that NT pastors are nowhere ordained as a distinctive sacerdotal class of believers titled "priests." See above post.

[Resettozero]

From high in the right field bleachers, up in the corner, behind a post, comes the clapping of two hands and the yell:

“That’s good stuff!”

[St_Thomas_Aquinas]

Why is support of the Jews not a significant part of RCC Holy Tradition?

If you're speaking about 20th century behavior, I think the Church's main concern has been for the Christians in the Holy Land, although I agree that the popes don't seem to have supported Israel adequately against the Mohammedans. But this is a matter of prudential judgement, not doctrine.

Also, keep in mind that the Church helped save thousands of Jews during WWII. "Hitler's Pope" had such a great role in protecting Jews during the war, that the then Rabbi of Rome converted to Catholicism, and took the pope's name as his baptismal name.

[St_Thomas_Aquinas]

You guys CONTINUALLY want to take ONE example and then try to apply it across the board!

So? Where does the Bible say that this miracle can only happen once? Where does the Bible say that "Where's that in the Bible?" is the sole rule of faith?

Touching Elisha's bones also brought a man back to life.

Early Christians valued relics highly, and they were much closer to Apostolic times than you or me.

In fact, the fact that there are no relics of Mary is evidence of her bodily assumption into heaven.

[St_Thomas_Aquinas]

I consider scripture as the infallibly inspired word of God.

Which collection of books, Luther's or the Church's? How do you know this, infallibly?

"The Bible is a fallible collection of infallible books." --R.C. Sproul

Lutheranism is logically incoherent.

[St_Thomas_Aquinas]

Other Tradition(s) regarding teachings necessary for salvation are the Seven Sacraments, most of which the Catholic Church posits as normative for salvation.

(Protestant groups confess 0-7 sacraments.)

I'm bookmarking this page in case you forget that a Catholic provided you with several examples of Sacred Tradition, and you repeat this again:

I’m amazed at the SILENCE when Catholics are asked, begged and pleaded with to PLEASE show us just what TRADITIONS they have that are NEEDED for Salvation.

[CynicalBear]

>>Which collection of books, Luther's or the Church's?<<

God's. And His don't have any errors.

>>Lutheranism is logically incoherent.<<

I'm not Lutheran.

[Resettozero]

To rephrase, do you think that throughout history the RCC has constantly been strongly supportive of and reaching out to the Jews, dispersed and now returned to their God-selected earthly homeland?

BTW, RCC has claimed credit also for the helping of Jews during WWII performed by many other non-RCs.

Your posted story of the Rabbi of Rome’s conversion is understandable.

That’s your entire response? I hope for better and more.

[Resettozero]

In fact, the fact that there are no relics of Mary is evidence of her bodily assumption into heaven.

Now I begin to think you're just funning us.

[CynicalBear]

When Paul answered “believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved” was he lying or did he just forget?

[boatbums]

Thank you for your kind and encouraging words.

[Heart-Rest]

"And that is the tack that I believe CB is taking, that the initiative is with God, i.e., God is not passively waiting for apostolic permission or prohibition, but has already set those limits, and would act through the apostles to express those limits to His people. Which in fact He has done, and the record of that expression is Scripture, which is why Scripture must be the first firewall in preventing error from entering the ecclesia, in terms of spurious "binding" and "loosing" introduced by unauthorized sources.

BTW, I notice you focus your claim of infallibility on Peter. But why? Because two chapters later, Jesus says this same power of permitting and forbidding is for all the apostles:"

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That "apostolic sharing" is precisely the teaching of the Church on the gift of infallibility as well.    Infallibility includes the teaching authority (on faith and morals) of the pope and the magisterium (including the bishops - the successors to the apostles - in union with the pope), at very limited, specific times.    Your observation reinforces that teaching of the Church.

(Read this to get a good description of the very limited gift of infallibility, and how it applied and applies to Peter and his successors, as well as how it applied and applies to the the other apostles and their successors as well, but was certainly not applied to all the other ordinary followers of Jesus Christ at that time or in the future.)

(By the way, do you think the individual thoughts and pronouncements of Judas Iscariot on matters of faith and morals were infallible?)

However, even in contrast to the other apostles, Peter was special, as he was the only apostle Jesus renamed "rock", and informed that Jesus was going to build His Church on that "rock".   (Likewise, Mary was very special, as she was the only person God chose to be the mother of Jesus.)

I would also take issue with your characterization of what you think CynicalBear was saying.    He said this about that "future perfect passive verb":

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"Note there is no beginning or end."   - CynicalBear - post #945

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That "future perfect passive" voice of a verb does not indicate that something has no beginning or end.

When we say some "binding" or "loosing" "will have been done" (which is what that NASB translation you provided gives us), it does not mean that the binding action had no beginning, or that it was completely unrelated to the human "binding" request in the Mind of God.

For someone to read into that phrase that the action had no beginning is to make up their own personal extension to the scriptures.

One last point - you like the KJV for its "ye" here and there, but not for it's "will be" in Matthew 16:19 and Matthew 18:18!    (In other words, you really, really, really, like the KJV, except when you really, really, really don't like it!)   :-)

(God really knew what He was doing when He began to build His Church, and had those Church leaders He chose begin to develop the New Testament, and to begin to authoritatively interpret His written Word.)

Peace!   (Click here to hear "Make Me A Channel Of Your Peace" - Friar Alessandro)

[Heart-Rest]

The Bible:  "...your Father knows what you need before you ask him." Matthew 6:8

Elsie:  "But it REALLY helps if MARY knows, too!"

=============================================================

It sure does help Elsie.

Do you believe it is helpful for FReepers to pray intercessory prayers for other FReepers, when someone posts a prayer request here, even though God already is fully aware of the situation?

In the Bible, the Holy Spirit has inspired many texts which plainly exhort us to pray for other people (including numerous quotations of Jesus Christ), so God definitely wants humans to pray for one another, even though God always already fully knows every single situation that every person is ever in at all times, and God already knows every single word that will be said in every single prayer ever prayed.

God also plainly tells us in His Bible that "the prayer of a righteous man has great power in its effects", and no mere human being is more righteous than the Blessed Mother Mary, so it is a great idea to ask Mary to pray for you, just like it is a good idea to ask other FReepers to pray for you when you feel in need of special prayers, even though God already knows everything they are going to say.

✝============================================================✝

The prayer of a righteous man has great power in its effects.    James 5:16b

✝============================================================✝

It is a good idea to never forget that.

[boatbums]

“The real reason why I cannot be in communion with you [Catholics] is not my disagreement with this or that Roman doctrine [but see his quote at link below on disagreements with some Roman Catholic doctrines], but that to accept your Church means, not to accept a given body of doctrine, but to accept in advance any doctrine your Church hereafter produces. It is like being asked to agree not only to what a man has said but also to what he is going to say.”- C. S. Lewis, “Christian Reunion”, in Christian Reunion and Other Essays, edited by Walter Hooper, London: Collins, 1990, p. 17-18. http://beggarsallreformation.blogspot.co m/2011/09/two-excellent-quotes-by-c-s-lewis-on.html)

Wait...THE C. S. Lewis, a really smart guy who didn't "pope"??? ;o)

I'm no intellectual, but I certainly agree with his reasons for rejecting the Pope of Rome's supposed infallibility and Catholicism's faulty defense of their unscriptural dogmas.

[terycarl]

>>no wonder you're not Catholic, you don't believe the very words of Christ....how sad.<< You mean these words? John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life. Of course we believe them. Why don't Catholocs?

I was thinking more along the line of ..unless you eat of the flesh of the Son of man and drink of His blood, you shall not have life within you.....or take and eat of this, this is My Body...etc.