THE ASSUMPTION OF MARY: Condemned as Heretical by 2 Popes in the 5th and 6th Centuries

christiantruth.com ^ | William Webster

[ronnietherocket3]

"Do not go beyond what is written."

The context of the passage is people judging each other and divisions in the church in Corinth, not disputes over Oral Tradition.

[daniel1212]

I have looked through a handful of that list; I have not seen anything that establishes the sole infallible authority of Scripture.

And so you said but you have a tendency to make statements but fail to actually answer challenges, so i must ask you again,

What other transcendent Infallible Authority do see in Scripture? If there is no other then it leaves only one. Do you see the infallible magisterium of Rome as being the transcendent Infallible Authority thru the Bible since the giving of the Law?

[boatbums]

Jesus has been referred to as a doorman. That should not bother you.

Jesus IS the door. Doormen open doors, but they aren't the door. Not trying to be petty here, but, this is an important distinction.

Very truly I tell you Pharisees, anyone who does not enter the sheep pen by the gate, but climbs in by some other way, is a thief and a robber. The one who enters by the gate is the shepherd of the sheep. The gatekeeper opens the gate for him, and the sheep listen to his voice. He calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. When he has brought out all his own, he goes on ahead of them, and his sheep follow him because they know his voice. But they will never follow a stranger; in fact, they will run away from him because they do not recognize a stranger’s voice.” Jesus used this figure of speech, but the Pharisees did not understand what he was telling them.

Therefore Jesus said again, “Very truly I tell you, I am the gate for the sheep. All who have come before me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep have not listened to them. I am the gate; whoever enters through me will be saved. They will come in and go out, and find pasture. The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I have come that they may have life, and have it to the full.

“I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep. The hired hand is not the shepherd and does not own the sheep. So when he sees the wolf coming, he abandons the sheep and runs away. Then the wolf attacks the flock and scatters it. The man runs away because he is a hired hand and cares nothing for the sheep.

“I am the good shepherd; I know my sheep and my sheep know me— just as the Father knows me and I know the Father—and I lay down my life for the sheep. I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd. The reason my Father loves me is that I lay down my life—only to take it up again. No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again. This command I received from my Father.” (John 10:1-18)

[ronnietherocket3]

You have to accept that the person Mary is of no significance whatsoever. She will not be crowned Queen, because there is no queen.

I do not have to accept Mary is of no significance. Jesus accuses the Pharisees of allowing people to honor the temple sacrifices above their mother and father. The temple sacrifices point towards Christ. Christ sacrifices himself. What does this indicate about where the commandment of honoring mother and father point towards?

[ronnietherocket3]

"She was pregnant and cried out in pain as she was about to give birth." (Rev. 12:2)

Is this talking about Mary? This could refer to Mary or Israel or both as it proceeds to describe the woman as giving birth to a child destined to rule all nations. I have a small issue with it being Israel; however, I see no reason to exclude a dual interpretation. This could extend to a triple interpretation if one includes the Church as some do.

[RegulatorCountry]

Many believe it’s a sign in the skies, also. Constellation Virgo.

[editor-surveyor]

That is a laughable stretch job!
.

[caww]

Thanks....as always...good post...

Our God is a God of ‘distinctions’...they matter.

[ronnietherocket3]

However, scripture repeatedly references people having multiple fathers.

It does? Do you want to name them?

I will start by saying that I did not intend the statement to mean that Scripture has a verse that states "People have multiple fathers". However, various verses refer to father in the plural or state someone other than God the Father is someone's father.

However, to start God the Father is that Father of all. So we have at least one. Lk1:17 has "to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children". If the only father of those children were God the Father, then it would not be in the plural. Lk1:55 has "as he spoke to our fathers", again in the plural. In Lk1:57-64, Zechariah is the father of John the Baptist. Lk1:72 has "to perform the mercy promised to our fathers". This is in the plural. In Lk1:73, we read "our father Abraham". In Lk2:48-49, Mary asks Jesus "your father and I have been looking for you anxiously" and Jesus responds with "Did you not know that I must be in my Father's house?" There appears to be difference between the father in Mary's question and the Father in Jesus' reply. In 1 Jn 2:1, John wrote "My little children". Since John is male, I think it is reasonable to say he is saying he is their father.

[ronnietherocket3]

And so you said but you have a tendency to make statements but fail to actually answer challenges, so i must ask you again,

What other transcendent Infallible Authority do see in Scripture? If there is no other then it leaves only one. Do you see the infallible magisterium of Rome as being the transcendent Infallible Authority thru the Bible since the giving of the Law?

I do not start off with the assumption it must be in Scripture in order to be true. So I see no reason to find it in Scripture.

[ronnietherocket3]

Here is what I pulled from 1 John 5:16-17 NIV from biblegateway.com

16 If you see any brother or sister commit a sin that does not lead to death, you should pray and God will give them life. I refer to those whose sin does not lead to death. There is a sin that leads to death. I am not saying that you should pray about that. 17 All wrongdoing is sin, and there is sin that does not lead to death.

[ronnietherocket3]

Please show the infallible source that show where the apostles taught the assumption of Mary.

The description that the woman will bear a son destined to rule all nations. I can think of two women who can claim this Israel and Mary. However, Rev 12 describes the devil as trying to sweep her away with the flood. The flood did not touch the woman. The flood could kill the woman by drowning her in sin (sin is the mechanism by which the devil cuts us off from God). However the flood (sin) does not touch the woman. It likely is not Israel as well read Hosea. However, thank you for the Immaculate Conception.

and:
The claim that Mary has other children does not disprove the Perpetual Virginity. It is the Catholic position that she is the Mother of all Christians. What would either disprove this woman is Mary or the Perpetual Virginity is a description that she bore the children from her womb. This passage only describes one child as being born of her womb.

At some point someone else on this thread posted:
Revelation 12 speaks of the constellation Bethula, and the 12 stars of the constellation Ariel beyond it, and the new moon at Bethula’s feet.

To which I responded:

First hit on a google search for the word Bethula turned up this page, which identifies Bethulah as a virgin, and we have a woman giving birth. How this is not Mary, I fail to understand.

When this thread started, I only ever saw Revelation 12 as evidence that Mary had been crowned Queen. Some Catholics used it to support the Assumption. In the process of arguing against the Assumption, I extracted the Immaculate Conception. In his rush to deny that it was Mary, ES made the claim the woman is Bethula (hebrew for virgin). This woman gives birth to a male child destined to rule all nations (i.e. Jesus). So know we have identified a Virgin giving birth to Jesus. This would appear to support the Perpetual Virginity (read one of the paragraphs at the top concerning the woman's other children). Please keep up the arguing, I may be able to pull co-rdemptrix out of this passage as well.

I had no real problem with a dual interpretation of this woman as Israel; however, I now see a reference to the Immaculate Conception and Perpetual sinlessness of the woman in question so I doubt it is Israel. My only problem with a triple interpretation including the Church was the description that the woman gives birth to a male child destined to rule all nations (i.e. Jesus).

The woman in Revelation is Isreal. It is she from which Jesus came. It is the remnant (the 144,000) of her seed who will flee and be persued by Satan during the last 3 1/2 years.

I see no reason to believe that her other children (no description of how they became her children) can only refer to the 144000 of Rev. 7 as the offspring here.

[Steelfish]

Small wonder that literalists don’t treat Jesus’s declaration that he “did not come to bring peace, but a sword,” as a command to rush off and polish their rapiers like Muslims who believe in Sharia Law.

The truth is literalists resort to context, the oral tradition of linguistic phrases such as interpreting the phrase to forgive “seventy-times seven” not as an arithmetical 490 times but as a never-ending infinity as confirmed by the then customary usage of that phrase, only serves to display the serious if not inherently contradictory modes of their scriptural interpretation.

Naturally, having denied Petrine authority, their beliefs collapse into an abyss of several thousand sects and sub-sects that range from the Billy Grahams and “prosperity gospel’s” Joel Osteens to the Jim Jones and David Koresh. Truth be told, every corner street self appointed pastor preaches and practices his or her own brand of “Christianity” that on the same street one may not be surprised to find three different interpretations of scripture emanating from evangelical churches that include the acceptance of gay bishops to snake handlers, all claiming literal scriptural authority.

To be sure, Evangelical Christianity as part of the so-called “Great Second Awakening” is at most discredited to a historical footnote of interest in the theological departments of major universities. Today this absurdity is relegated to beliefs embraced by the same type of crowd that attends an Oprah Lolapalooza. More a form of soapy song and dance entertainment interspersed with a pounding oration from cartoonish “Bishop” TD Jakes to carnival-themed born-again baptisms by Rick Warren.

Today no reputable theology department of any university dares instruct on such vapid nonsense as literalism or born-again stuff. The reason is clear. It allows for unrestrained free wheeling, the very antithesis of a studied inquiry into ONE truth for ALL times by the ONE Church Christ formed. Petrine authority is not only validated by a stellar body of Catholic intellectual thought but more recently even by some of the leading proponents of Protestants who converted to Catholicism.

This is not about name-dropping like in a neighborhood social club. Rather, it shows how scholarly and serious minds have spent all their adult lives studying all of scripture and have validate Petrine authority. The rest is all low-information “street-theology” mush with differences only in degrees between the Rev. Jeremiah Wrights and the Billy Grahams of this world. A world of Biblical anarchy.

[redleghunter]

Another flub. Thought I was replying to xins.

[redleghunter]

And LOL Graham was friendly with and met most of the popes in his life time so far. I mean if a pope kisses a Qur’an shaking the hand of Billy Graham should be ok for Catholics too.

[redleghunter]

I am in Texas and now Evangelical. There is a Cowboy assembly near me but I think I need to own a horse or Harley:)

[mlizzy]

We're talking only about a nickname for a statue. You must run a pretty tight ship at home. :)

[mlizzy]

Did you work in the supplement industry then?

Found this link today: http://www.forbes.com/sites/arthurcaplan/2014/09/30/five-ethical-points-now-that-ebola-has-entered-to-the-usa/

Government doesn’t want people attempting to prevent or heal themselves holistically from Eb*la either. Rather frightening, as there are so many natural aids out there to at least get your immune system in better shape. But, yes, you’re right, you can’t make any medical claim, but this is opening the door further to a total government clampdown on ALL supplements, which is what they’ve been trying to do since forever. YL will take an enormous hit on this.

[mlizzy]

But that's all any of us are going to encounter Him as.

My mom is hopefully in heaven, but I like to remember her as a little girl too. And a young woman just meeting my dad, and a new mom, etc.

[caww]

...."I’m going to look at some Catholic art, play some Catholic music, light a votive candle, burn some incense, and try to pray"....

These guys do that too!

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