THE ASSUMPTION OF MARY: Condemned as Heretical by 2 Popes in the 5th and 6th Centuries

christiantruth.com ^ | William Webster

[Elsie]

Something has to keep the low-self-esteem neurotics entertained...

Entertain a clown and you become part of the circus.

[caww]

<<<<...do you have faith enough in God’s power to believe that if God willed that Mary be able to hear all those prayers, God has enough power to enable her to hear them?”...>>>>

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That was clearly a loaded question ......kinda of like asking ...did you love your mother?....so Elsie’s response as follows was right on, and ignoring it was also correct...:

Elsie’s response....”Do you have enough brains to understand I do not go chasing these Catholic rabbits down the holes you keep trying to dig?”

(Way to go Elsie!)

[Iscool]

Jesus was no “itinerant preacher.” That’s a pedantic phrase reserved for Al Sharptons, David Goreshs; and Jeremiah Wrights and the likes of Billy Graham, Rev. Schuller, Joel Osteens, TD Jakes.

Jesus taught in people’s homes...For example He often visited Lazarus, Martha and Mary’s home and taught...We see this in several places in the Gospels...

On one occasion, Jesus and His disciples were their guests, and Mary sat at Jesus’s feet listening to Jesus’s teaching...Jesus also taught in fields, by trees, on boats, by the sea, in the temple, by a well, on the mount of Olive, on mountaintops, in valleys, and just about everywhere He went...

So I'd say we can disregard most everything you claim about Jesus or the bible...

Fundamentalists in many respects are not unlike Muslims interpreters of the Quran, where faith and reason are incompatible. To Catholics, faith and reason are braided together. Therein lies the difference!

I, the muzlims (if you say so) and Jesus agree with that statement...We know better than to mix our human reasoning with the spiritual things and truths of God...

Oddly the first thing a Catholic priest learns is 3+ years of human philosophy/reasoning, ahead of any religious teaching...And what does Jesus say about that???

Col_2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

And these philosophers, the great thinkers and scholars of the Catholic religion are going to show us something???

1Co_2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

[Elsie]

The original article provided quotes condemning as heresy books that mentioned the AOM; however, the quotes do not condemn the AOM specifically.

NOW you what specifics?

You sure do NOT care if they exist showing the AoM took place as your chosen religion now asserts.

[Elsie]

I've visited Rachel and bought a souvenir t-shirt there.

[redleghunter]

Indeed. Did you see the posts which admitted the apocryphal writings WERE the source of the doctrine? And then defended such by claiming some good doctrine can come from a condemned text? Unbelievable! Didn’t the church fathers argue and toil against heresies and then demand such texts be destroyed? Yet we have those who claim these fathers as doctors and saints but disregard their warnings of false doctrines.

Just thought I would point out this fallacious approach.

[Steelfish]

Throwing out snippets of scripture is exactly what sola scripturas do. They refuse to hold their claims to serious theological and historical debate and this is why no university theological department take fundamentalists seriously anymore than the way Muslims interpret the Quran.

[metmom]

You can continue to brag on intellectual superiority, and attempt to denigrate others based on that, but intellectualism is NOT how to know God and understand the gospel and come to a saving relationship with God through Christ.

SPIRITUAL TRUTHS ARE SPIRITUALLY DISCERNED

1 Corinthians 1:18-31 For the word of the cross is folly to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. For it is written,“I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and the discernment of the discerning I will thwart.”

Where is the one who is wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? For since, in the wisdom of God, the world did not know God through wisdom, it pleased God through the folly of what we preach to save those who believe. For Jews demand signs and Greeks seek wisdom, but we preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and folly to Gentiles, but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. For the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men.

For consider your calling, brothers: not many of you were wise according to worldly standards, not many were powerful, not many were of noble birth. But God chose what is foolish in the world to shame the wise; God chose what is weak in the world to shame the strong; God chose what is low and despised in the world, even things that are not, to bring to nothing things that are, so that no human being might boast in the presence of God. And because of him you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, righteousness and sanctification and redemption, so that, as it is written, “Let the one who boasts, boast in the Lord.”

1 Corinthians 2:1-16 And I, when I came to you, brothers, did not come proclaiming to you the testimony of God with lofty speech or wisdom. For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ and him crucified. And I was with you in weakness and in fear and much trembling, and my speech and my message were not in plausible words of wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power, so that your faith might not rest in the wisdom of men but in the power of God.

Yet among the mature we do impart wisdom, although it is not a wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are doomed to pass away. But we impart a secret and hidden wisdom of God, which God decreed before the ages for our glory. None of the rulers of this age understood this, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. But, as it is written,

“What no eye has seen, nor ear heard, nor the heart of man imagined, what God has prepared for those who love him”—

these things God has revealed to us through the Spirit. For the Spirit searches everything, even the depths of God. For who knows a person's thoughts except the spirit of that person, which is in him? So also no one comprehends the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. Now we have received not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might understand the things freely given us by God. And we impart this in words not taught by human wisdom but taught by the Spirit, interpreting spiritual truths to those who are spiritual.

The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned. The spiritual person judges all things, but is himself to be judged by no one. “For who has understood the mind of the Lord so as to instruct him?” But we have the mind of Christ.

[MamaB]

I sure don’t. God bless.

[daniel1212]

I should note that one of the errors of Martin Luther condemned by Pope Leo X in his papal bull Exsurge Domine (June 15, 1520) was Luther’s belief that “Purgatory cannot be proved from Sacred Scripture which is in the canon.”

this refers to Luther's debate with Eck, in which the latter appealed to 2 Maccabees 12:46 as a clear and incontestable proof from Scripture that Purgatory exists. To which Luther responded, "There is no proof of Purgatory in any portion of sacred Scripture, for the book of Maccabees not being in the Canon, is of weight with the faithful, but avails nothing with the obstinate"

And as he had Catholic support in this, for the canon with the apocrypha was not indisputably settled (with even Cardinals dissenting in Trent), in seeking to support her traditions against the Reformers then Trent had to render an infallible list of books, which had general consensus. Thus it was not only Luther but Rome which had doctrinal motivation for their position on the canon.

Scripture itself is sufficient to prove the existence of Purgatory.

Wrong, as will be shown by God's grace.

The chief Old Testament verse that indicates the necessity of purgation after death (and thus implies a place or state where such purgation takes place—hence the name Purgatory) is 2 Maccabees 12:46: It is therefore a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead, that they may be loosed from sins.

But 2Mac. 12 teaches that prayers and sacrifices for the dead are efficacious for dead idolaters, who were slain for being so , which is a mortal sin according to Rome, for which there is no purgatory.

And upon the day following, as the use had been, Judas and his company came to take up the bodies of them that were slain, and to bury them with their kinsmen in their fathers' graves. Now under the coats of every one that was slain they found things consecrated to the idols of the Jamnites, which is forbidden the Jews by the law. Then every man saw that this was the cause wherefore they were slain. (2Ma 12:39-40)

Thus all you have is an extraBiblical book which proves more than you want, and forces RC apologists to engage in special pleading to explain.

(A side note: Martin Luther argued that 1 and 2 Maccabees did not belong in the canon of the Old Testament, even though they had been accepted by the universal Church from the time that the canon was settled. Thus his contention, condemned by Pope Leo, that “Purgatory cannot be proved from Sacred Scripture which is in the canon.”)

Repeated against but wrong again. There was no infallible canon at the time. If only RCs would not refuse to read what refutes their parroted canard. I will provide just one admission from the Catholic Encyclopedia, Canon of the Old Testament;

In the Latin Church, all through the Middle Ages [5th century to the 15th century] we find evidence of hesitation about the character of the deuterocanonicals. There is a current friendly to them, another one distinctly unfavourable to their authority and sacredness, while wavering between the two are a number of writers whose veneration for these books is tempered by some perplexity as to their exact standing, and among those we note St. Thomas Aquinas. Few are found to unequivocally acknowledge their canonicity. The prevailing attitude of Western medieval authors is substantially that of the Greek Fathers. The chief cause of this phenomenon in the West is to be sought in the influence, direct and indirect, of St. Jerome's depreciating Prologus. (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03267a.htm) ^

Saint Peter and Saint Paul both speak of “trials” that are compared with a “cleansing fire.” In 1 Peter 1:6-7, Saint Peter refers to our necessary trials in this world:

Exactly, in this world, "though now for a season - not later after death. All exhortation toward growth in moral perfection is taught and shown as being in this world! And is because God wants the believer to grow in grace to the glory of God and our good, and not to fall.

And in 1 Corinthians 3:13-15, Saint Paul extends this image into the life after this one: Every man’s work shall be manifest; for the day of the Lord shall declare it, because it shall be revealed in fire; and the fire shall try every man’s work, of what sort it is. If any man’s work abide, which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man’s work burn, he shall suffer loss; but he himself shall be saved, yet so as by fire.

More wresting of Scripture as this only occurs as the return of Christ, (1Cor. 4:5; 2Tim. 4:1,8; Rev.11:18; Mt. 25:31-46; 1Pt. 1:7; 5:4) not commencing at death,

and the only suffering is the Lord's displeasure and loss of rewards, based upon the quality of his work which he built the church with,

while the believer is saved despite the loss of material, not because of! See here .

Christ Himself, in Matthew 12:31-32, speaks of forgiveness in this age (here on earth, as in 1 Peter 1:6-7) and in the world to come (as in 1 Corinthians 3:13-15):

Matthew 12:31-32 refers to the Lords reign on earth, which is followed by the judgment, and thus He goes on to say, B"ut I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment." (Matthew 12:36)

The Bible most apparently teaches that the resurrected saints (who have part in the first resurrection - the resurrection of life:” Jn. 5:29a; Rev. 20:6,7,14) will return with the LORD from Heaven to execute judgment, and to reign with with Him for the 1,000 year millennium. (Rv. 2:27; 19:15; 20:6 - and during which the Jews shall be tested): “And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him." (Jude 1:14-15; cf. Mal. 3:18; Mt 16:27; 19:28; Mt 24:30,31; 25:31; Lk. 22:20; 2Th 1:7,8; Re 1:7; 5:10; 19:6-20; 20:4) “Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father.” (Mt. 13:43) And as stars differs from one another in glory, (1Cor. 15:41) it is not unreasonable to suppose that in eternity some saints might shine brighter than another, depending upon how single their eye was on earth, (Mt. 6:22) and how they responded to the light and grace they received. (Lk. 12:48)]

All RCs can claim is some sort of "implicit support" for postmortem purification, but the idea is nothing more than misconstruing what Scripture says, so that believers are yet unholy and defiled even though God says that in Christ they are

washed, sanctified and justified, (1Cor. 6:11)

accepted in the Beloved, (Eph. 1:6)

seated in the Heavenly with Christ, (Eph. 2:6)

and have direct access into the holiest of all in Christ, as Christ removed the veil that separated them from it, (Heb. 10:19)

and thus all believers would directly go to henceforth be with the Lord even if He returned in their lifetime, (1Ths. 4:17)

and otherwise are only clearly told - speaking of the afterlife - that to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord, (2Cor. 5:8; Phil. 1:23,24) even by one who said he was not yet perfect,

to join OT believers in the the heavenly Jerusalem including Samson who only waited for Christ's atonement to be there, (Heb. 11:32,40; 12:22,23) for faith in the Lord and His atonement places one there,

and who will put off this "body of death" (Rm. 7:24) "for he that is dead is freed from sin." (Romans 6:6-7)

Meanwhile, the only place of growth in grace spoken of is in this world,

which is not by simply suffering but by facing tests and trials of faith,

and likewise the only manifest salvific chastisement spoken of is in the here and "now for a season," (1Pt. 1:6)

while the only postmortem spoken of is at the judgment seat of Christ, which is at the return of the Lord. (1Cor. 3:8ff)

Why no just admit that purgatory is a tradition of men and stop trying to wrest Scripture in RC extrapolative attempts to support it?

Yet even EOs (which have their loose version of postmortem preparation) reject the fiery purgatory of Rome as being contrary to tradition:

with its sinful passions at death, Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him,

►Both purgatory and indulgences are inter-corrolated theories, unwitnessed in the Bible or in the Ancient Church.. — http://www.goarch.org/ourfaith/ourfaith7076

►The Orthodox Church does not believe in purgatory (a place of purging), that is, the inter-mediate state after death in which the souls of the saved (those who have not received temporal punishment for their sins) are purified of all taint preparatory to entering into Heaven, where every soul is perfect and fit to see God.

Also, the Orthodox Church does not believe in indulgences as remissions from purgatoral punishment. Both purgatory and indulgences are inter-corrolated theories, unwitnessed in the Bible or in the Ancient Church, and when they were enforced and applied they brought about evil practices at the expense of the prevailing Truths of the Church. If Almighty God in His merciful loving-kindness changes the dreadful situation of the sinner, it is unknown to the Church of Christ. The Church lived for fifteen hundred years without such a theory. — http://www.goarch.org/ourfaith/ourfaith7076

[Gamecock]

Name me a single university theological department that spouts this infantile stuff.

Speaking of infants:

Catholic Universities Have Been Paying For Abortions All Along

[NKP_Vet]

But there’s a lapsed Catholic on FR who can answer it and all things Catholic, as long as it’s negative. Never can that lapsed Catholic give credit to the Catholic Church for anything positive. Not in the last 2,000 years has the Catholic Church did anything positive in that lapsed Catholic’s opinion.

[Heart-Rest]

"That was clearly a loaded question ......kinda of like asking ...did you love your mother?....so Elsie’s response as follows was right on, and ignoring it was also correct...: Elsie’s response....”Do you have enough brains to understand I do not go chasing these Catholic rabbits down the holes you keep trying to dig?” (Way to go Elsie!)

=============================================================

Well, if it goes without saying that God does have the power enable Mary and the other saints to hear all those prayers, why does he keep posting all those mathematical expressions to show that it is an impossibility?"

[mlizzy]

So Catholics have a tough time remembering Jesus, eh??? I suspect you guys have so much junk between you and Jesus you rarely think of Him... I have never heard of Christians needing aides to help them remember Jesus...

A "wandering" mind is one that starts thinking of purchasing a new car when you don't need one, worrying about your status in your neighborhood, checking out your neighbor's wife a few times too many, digging into pornography, when you should be reading the Bible instead, etc. and so on. Everyone sins. When they do, they're not "remembering" Christ. So the more reminders of Christ (about the home) the better, so you can choose His path and not one of sin. As my DH wrote in one of his articles about the Miraculous Medal:

Also, as with the rosary, it's very hard to sin when you are holding it [the Miraculous Medal], you almost have to discard it, or at least put it in your pocket, to proceed with anything nasty.

Maybe Catholics sin more than people of your chosen faith following? I don't know.

[Elsie]

What's that; Joseph?

Mary, honey. Haven't you read 1 Corinthians 7:5 ??

What does it say, dear.

Uh...
      Do not deprive one another, except perhaps by agreement for a limited time, that you may devote yourselves to prayer;
      but then come together again, so that Satan may not tempt you because of your lack of self-control.

It's been a LONG time. When are we going to consummate our marriage?

Surely you know how SPECIAL I am.   Do you REALLY want to mess that up?

Sigh.   Well; can I just get you a handmaiden to help you with your chores?

[Elsie]

Proof of this fact has been posted here many times.

Proof?

I've seen CLAIMS of 'proof'.

[CynicalBear]

They refuse to hold their claims to serious theological Pharisaical and historical debate and this is why no university theological Pharisaical department take fundamentalists seriously anymore than the way Muslims interpret the Quran.

There, now it's more accurate.

[metmom]

It's a wonder that the fact that they use an admitted and previously condemned as heretical text to support a doctrine that is so critical to them and is incorporated into the CCC which they must adhere to at the risk of losing their salvation doesn't cause some of them to wonder just what is going on in their church.

Instead it's this:

All the while condemning US as heretics and mouth breathers.

[Elsie]

Because she's the Mother of God.

Too bad she apparently was NEVER a wife to Joseph!

[Elsie]

 

 

 While he yet talked to the people, behold, his mother and his brethren stood without, desiring to speak with him.

 

And yet; the text gives NO indication that MARY got to speak to Him.

Yeah; that's a son's love for Mother all right.