The Rev Ian Paisley Dies Aged 88

The Catholic Herald (UK) ^ | 9/12/14 | Staff Reporter

[marshmallow]

The Rev Ian Paisley, Protestant firebrand and former leader of the Democratic Unionist Party, has died at the age of 88.

The Rev Paisley served as First Minister of Northern Ireland for a year when power was first devolved in 2007.

His deputy, Martin McGuinness of Sinn Féin, expressed sadness at the news of his death.

“Over a number of decades we were political opponents and held very different views on many, many issues but the one thing we were absolutely united on was the principle that our people were better able to govern themselves than any British government,” he said.

“I want to pay tribute to and comment on the work he did in the latter days of his political life in building agreement and leading unionism into a new accommodation with republicans and nationalists.

[marshmallow]

Paisley will be remembered primarily for his contribution to British politics. He spent 40 years as a Member of Parliament, 37 years as Democratic Unionist Party leader, 25 years as an MEP and 13 years as a member of the Northern Island Assembly.

That doesn't leave much time for ministry.

[.45 Long Colt]

I don’t care how he’s remembered by the world, Protestants should remember that he preached thousands of sermons and somehow found time to found the Free Presbyterian Church. He served as its moderator from around 1950 until only a few years ago. Under his leadership the FPC spread throughout Northern Ireland. It has congregations in the U.S. (there are FReepers who are members), Scotland, England, Canada, and Australia. The FPC has a college, a seminary, and it supports foreign missionaries in India, Africa, the Caribbean, the Philippines, and various European countries. For a guy supposedly all about politics he sure did a lot for the cause of Christ.

[marshmallow]

The Free Presbyterian Church was founded in 1951, before his serious involvement in politics began. It wasn't until the late 1950s that he became involved in politics. As the years passed, his political involvement increased with his election to the House of Commons in 1970 and the European Parliament in 1979. From the 1970s onwards he was essentially a full-time politician.

The last census results which I saw (early 1990s) indicated that 1% of the Northern Ireland population claimed adherence to his Free Presbyterian Church. It may well be less now, given the general religious malaise in the UK.

[vladimir998]

“Your response was “no real response”.”

Except that my original response shows you had no idea fo what you were talking about.

“If you don’t like my anecdotes from my personal experience, that is merely your problem.”

Your anecdotes do nothing to eliminate Paisley’s actual words. You keep ignoring those.

“The Irish Times in my day was known as the pro-Protestant/pro-English paper.”

It doesn’t matter. Only Paisley’s words - all of those listed are verified by other sources - matter. You continued attempts to ignore them do not.

“Now it is pro-European Union. So you will forgive me if I take the context of Paisley’s quotes from that paper with a grain of salt, especially since his latter actions are more important than his former and even more since I regard the IRA and Sinn Féin (who many Catholics were foolish enough to support, foolish since they are socialists that were and are a greater danger to their religion than the DUP) as the greater evil.”

All of what you just said is meaningless. Paisley’s words are genuine. You can look them up elsewhere. He said what he said. You refuse to deal with that fact.

“If you’re worried about misinformed insult, you must not be very confident in your faith. Look to the Apostles, I suggest.”

Look at Paisley’s own words, I suggest. You can’t refute them.

[Olog-hai]

Only Paisley’s words matter? Then one ought to be able to prove or disprove them, or let them go when it comes to matters of doctrine. Especially matters relating to Catholic homes being storehouses for gasoline bombs to be used by socialist terror groups need to be disproven, if one can (now where did Hamas get the idea to store weapons in civilian homes from, I wonder?)

Reportedly Paisley mellowed later in life; when the more nationalist Irish Independent compares him to the SDLP’s John Hume of all people, then perhaps it is time to let certain things go? Think about Matthew 6:15 and Mark 11:26.

[.45 Long Colt]

You remember the way you want to. And I will continue to see his political activity as the natural outgrowth of his commitment to historic Protestantism. I will remember him as a bold fighter in the battle of the ages.

[Agamemnon]

Paisley will be remembered primarily for his contribution to British politics. He spent 40 years as a Member of Parliament, 37 years as Democratic Unionist Party leader, 25 years as an MEP and 13 years as a member of the Northern Island Assembly. That doesn't leave much time for ministry.

Marshmallow, respectfully I think all you're really telling us all is how much time you must waste all by yourself every day.

By your own telling of it Paisley had already had a 20 year career as a minister -- founder of a Presbyterian denomination no less -- prior to being elected to Parliament, and while in Parliament managed his time in such a way as to continue to lead his denomination for the next 38 years.

Like Congressmen, members of Parliament likely have ample amounts of time to do other things than show up for debates and to vote.

You can remember what you want to remember about Dr. Paisley. Among other things I have recounted, I'll choose to remember him as someone who inscribed my Bible on August 8, 1970 after having the privilege of having dinner with him and his family, and as someone who had more back bone and stamina to uphold Biblical truth and political conservatism at a time when one could literally catch a bullet for having done so.

I rank him up there with other faithful followers of Christ from that era who I also had the privilege to meet and to hear: Dr. Richard Wurmbrand (founder of "Voice of the Martyrs" and author of "Tortured for Christ" ), Nikki Cruz (author, "The Cross and the Switchblade" and "Run, Baby, Run"> ) and Corrie Ten Boom (author, "The Hiding Place" ).

May you someday be found accountable as one was as comparably faithful.

FReegards!

[marshmallow]

We're really talking at cross purposes. I'm not attempting to assign him a place in the pantheon of Protestant preachers.

I'm saying (once again) that politics occupied the majority of his time.

This from someone who has spent considerable time on both sides of the Atlantic and whose familiarity goes beyond a collection of his sermons.

[Agamemnon]

I'm not attempting to assign him a place in the pantheon of Protestant preachers.

This is clear. However, I think what you fail to grasp is that the oratorical skills sets and synthesis process which one employs as a minister is very much the same as the skills set employed by as one who is merely the loquacious statesman or politician -- absent necessarily having a Biblically informed moral rudder.

My brother in fact did his undergrad in Political Science at University of RI, obtained his JD from U TENN, and his Master of divinity from Geneva. Today he serves as an Orthodox Presbyterian minister of an OP church and features a legal counseling ministry also. He probably doesn't fit your more narrow interpretation of the word, "evangelist," either.

I'm saying (once again) that politics occupied the majority of his time.

Respectfully, I don't think you ever knew him personally well enough to say how Dr. Paisley occupied his time.

Suffice it to say that as the clock runs the man served in Parliament for 44 years and in the pulpit for 64 years -- 20 of which were served before he was even in Parliament.

If you find yourself inclined to quibble simplistic percentages in Paisley's case it is still roughly 60/40 minister vs. statesman.

Perhaps your perspective comes as from one who can only manage to do one thing well at a time. There are some who are able to comfortably and effectively reclaim time well enough to enjoy parallel careers. In Paisley's case he squandered little time and accomplished in one lifetime what amounts to the equivalent of 3 lifetimes for others whose goals perhaps tend to be somewhat less challenging.

This from someone who has spent considerable time on both sides of the Atlantic and whose familiarity goes beyond a collection of his sermons.

I, too, frequently travel to the UK and globally on business. A daughter happens to be studying in the UK at present in fact. I don't know what that has to do with anything other than to say we are apparently both well-travelled.

The difference between ourselves is that I have familiarity with Dr. Paisley's sermons that you apparently do not.

Perhaps the sticking point is that if you are a Catholic you'd feel compelled to bring it up at confession that you actually listened to a sermon by Dr. Paisley. I wouldn't know.

In any case I invited you to obtain such familiarity and gave you the link to do so.

You might want to start here: What Think Ye of Christ?

Invite a priest to listen with you.

All that remains now is for you to decide to become more familiar with sermons he gave over a 64-year ministry in order to have a better informed perspective.

FReegards!

[Vanders9]

He was a conviction politician and we need more like that, even ones that you disagree with. At least you knew where you stood with Paisley. I’d rather have him than the mealy mouthed lukewarm politicos that infest the Western democracies these days, the kind that say what they think you want to hear, rather than what they actually believe...

[Vanders9]

I concur with almost all of that. I think its pretty poignant he should die now, with Scotland perhaps poised to destroy the union he spent his whole life trying to uphold and maintain.

[Vanders9]

Yes I think I agree with you.

[sasportas]

I went to your link, listened to Paisley’s message. I noticed, and contrary to the way so many on this thread want to think of Paisley, not a word said in the message about politics, instead masterful preaching of the word of God.

Yes, he did get very involved in politics, but can anybody listen to this message and doubt he remained anything other than the great preacher of the gospel he was in this message? ...until he drew his last breath?

[marshmallow]

Are you trying to persuade us that Paisley spent most of his time and energies preaching and ministering to his tiny flock and that he dabbled in politics on the side?

Is that your argument?

[vladimir998]

“Only Paisley’s words matter?”

In a debate about Paisley, yes.

“(now where did Hamas get the idea to store weapons in civilian homes from, I wonder?)”

Probably from the Jews: http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/features/jews-just-like-arabs-hid-weapons-in-immoral-places-1.339432

Paisley’s words are still his words. Deal with it.

[Olog-hai]

You sure do have a problem with the Jews; I didn’t even bring them up. Haaretz has a history of posting antisemitic leftist falsehoods, just for one example.

Are you sure you’re on the right forum?

[vladimir998]

“You sure do have a problem with the Jews;”

Not one bit. All I did was point out that they hid weapons in Palestine long before Hamas did.

“I didn’t even bring them up.”

No, instead you insinuated that not only was Paisley right about Catholics hiding weapons in their homes (which he said to rationalize his supporters’ burning of Catholic families’ homes) but that Hamas might have learned to hide weapons in homes from those Catholics. Yeah, that’s all you did.

“Haaretz has a history of posting antisemitic leftist falsehoods, just for one example.”

So according to you first the Irish Times can’t be trusted because they actually published Paisley’s own words and now Haaretz “has a history of posting antisemitic leftist falsehoods” because it became known Jews hid weapons in places similar to those used by Hamas.

“Are you sure you’re on the right forum?”

Absolutely. Are you sure you’re in the right universe? I ask because you seem out of touch with reality.

[Olog-hai]

Yes, I did indicate that Hamas might have learned such a thing from the IRA. Mainly because of their history together.

With all due respect, your root of bitterness needs some glyphosate salts sprayed on them. Paisley is dead and you are alive, and at least he did try to make amends for the division he fomented.

[vladimir998]

“Yes, I did indicate that Hamas might have learned such a thing from the IRA. Mainly because of their history together.”

And now we know they could have just as easily learned of it from Jews. Most likely they simply came up with it on their own. After all, throughout history, all terrorist organizations, and all insurgent armies, kept weapons in homes.

“With all due respect, your root of bitterness needs some glyphosate salts sprayed on them.”

With out any respect whatsoever, your dismissal of reality isn’t working for you.

“Paisley is dead and you are alive, and at least he did try to make amends for the division he fomented.”

I don’t believe he ever really made amends for that would mean he would have had to admit to his guilt in the troubles he helped cause in the 1960s and he never did so as far as I know. His words and actions are still all his.

[Olog-hai]

No we don’t know that, because how can one learn the alleged tactics of an enemy faster than the actual tactics of an ally?

I dismiss no reality, but I take a dim view of fabrications.

You are a bit too quick to insert “Jews” into an unrelated subject, too.