The Catholic Defender: Mary, Queen Of Heaven

http://www.deepertruthblog.com ^ | August 19, 2014

[narses]

[xone]

"Luther supports praying with Mary and even to Mary"

Luther prayed to Mary when he was a Catholic, show me a sermon of his where he espoused the practice of praying TO Mary after he got into it with the Pope. Prayer to Mary isn't part of the Lutheran Confession and I linked to the Defense of the Augsburg Confession related to the Invocation of the Saints. What the apostate elca claims has as much legitimacy as LCWR speaking on Catholicism.

would at least include a count of these web-listed North American Lutheran denominations:

Lutheran is the Denomination, adherence to the Lutheran Confessions, the standard. To the extent that a body follows them, they are Lutheran. Otherwise they fool themselves like they have apparently fooled you. LCWR Catholic? 'Catholic' churches not in communion with Rome Catholic? 'Catholics' that don't recognize the Pope Catholic? Sedevacantists Catholic? They call themselves Catholic, and that is the same standard you apply to 'Lutherans' here. What's the difference?

[CommerceComet]

The Catholic Church teaches Catholics to pray to God and to good angels such as their guardian angels, St. Michael, St. Gabriel, etc., and to saints - NOT to Satan, or to evil spirits.

I was only following the constructs that you dogmatically laid out. You painted yourself into that corner.

For information about praying to Satan, you will have to talk to fellow non-Catholics about that.

It has already been established that the vast majority of Protestants don't pray to anyone but God. We are not the ones tempted to pray to created entities nor the ones who have to defend the illogical notion that prayer isn't worship.

[CommerceComet]

No person with at least minimal competence in the English language would seriously claim that David was saying there that all prayer by every person at all times was a sacrifice, or that all prayer must be directed toward a deity, any more than they would claim that all prayer must be accompanied by the raising of ones hands.

David said that his prayer was sacrifice. Did he explicitly said that ALL prayer was sacrifice? No, but where in Scripture is it stated (or can be reasonably inferred) that there is a class of prayer that isn't sacrifice? You would agree that sacrifice can only be offered to God, right? You would agree that sacrifice offered is worship, right?

In his prayer recorded there in Psalm 103, David is talking directly to God's angels, exhorting them to "bless the Lord". His prayer at that point is specifically directed to angels, fellow created beings.

Using your tools of exegesis, David must be praying to his own soul in verses 1, 2, and 22 exhorting it to bless the Lord. In verse 22, is David praying to all God's works to bless the Lord? The structure of all five verses is the same - how can you justify translating two of them differently?

[Salvation]

In the Book of Revelation, incense is used in the heavenly worship before the throne of God:

“Another angel came in holding a censer of gold. He took his place at the altar of incense and was given large amounts of incense to deposit on the altar of gold in front of the throne, together with the prayers of all God’s holy ones. From the angel’s hand, the smoke of the incense went up before God, and with it the prayers of God’s people.”

From the Book of Revelation

[Salvation]

Revelation, chapter 8

View all books of the Bible

CHAPTER 8^*

The Gold Censer.

3Another angel came and stood at the altar,^* holding a gold censer. He was given a great quantity of incense to offer, along with the prayers of all the holy ones, on the gold altar that was before the throne.^c

4The smoke of the incense along with the prayers of the holy ones went up before God from the hand of the angel.

[CommerceComet]

4The smoke of the incense along with the prayers of the holy ones went up before God from the hand of the angel

The Book of Hebrews establishes that angels are ministering spirits on behalf of mankind. John's vision seems to describe how this role works to some degree. Yet, where are we granted license to pray to the angels? The Book of Hebrews makes it clear that Jesus is above the angels now. Why pray to the lesser beings without explicit instruction from God when the greater is available and the Biblical pattern shows that prayers are offered to God? Particularly, when the greater is explicitly granted the role as the sole mediator between God and man (1 Timothy 2:5)?

The problem with using this text as support for prayers to created beings is that the text doesn't tell us to whom the prayers were directed. Just looking at the text alone, it is just as plausible to conclude that the prayers were directed to God and the angels were only acting as messengers to deliver them. The text doesn't say anything about the prayers being offered to the angels.