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Millennial Series: Part 8: Amillennial Ecclesiology
Bible.org ^ | 1951 | John F. Walvoord

Posted on 08/10/2014 10:55:09 AM PDT by wmfights

Few doctrines are more central in the Christian faith than the doctrine of the church. The teachings concerning its nature, form of government, its sacraments, the priesthood of the church, its essential duties, its rights, and its relation to the world and to the state combine to form an important segment of Christian truth. Given the doctrine of the church, the rest of a theological system can almost be deduced.

It is the purpose of this aspect of the study to trace the influence of amillennialism in the field of ecclesiology and to form some estimate of its importance and results. There has been growing realization that some relation exists and that those who differ on the millennial issue usually hold differing concepts of the church itself. The Influence of Amillennialism on Roman Ecclesiology

As amillennialism had its rise historically in the Roman church and developed as an integral part of the Roman system, significant facts appear in the history of the period from Augustine in the fourth century to the Reformation. The Roman Church, first of all, regarded itself as the continuation of Israel as a spiritual entity. The political or theocratic character of Israel as well as its religious life was considered as continuing in new form in the Roman Church. Like Israel the Roman Church was a combined political and spiritual society. Just as Israel had power under God to legislate, to govern itself politically and religiously, so the Roman Church claimed for itself similar power. As the spiritual is higher and more important than the political, so the church claimed authority over the secular state.

The amillennial interpretation of Scripture was, of course, essential to this Roman viewpoint. Only by denying fulfillment of the promises of God to Israel and by spiritualized interpretation transferring them to the Roman Church could any vital connection between Judaism and Christianity be established. The church had to be the successors and inheritors of Israel’s promises. This is essentially the amillennial system of interpretation. The premillennial interpretation, for instance, would never have issued into the Roman system if consistently applied. The amillennial approach was essential to the Roman system of doctrine. Apart from it, the Roman system would have been without authorization in its use of truth committed to Israel only.

In the period before the Reformation, the Roman Church tended to emphasize the external nature of the church. Its organization, authority, sacraments, and religious rites were for the most part external, and adherence and submission to the external Roman Church were the indispensable prerequisites for salvation and fellowship in Roman Christianity. The Roman Church did not deny that there existed the so-called invisible church, but they defined this as a fellowship of believers derived from being a part of the visible, that is, the Roman, Church. They held that there is no church invisible which is not a part of the visible Roman Church, and the important question was whether one was a part of this visible church. As Berkhof summarizes the Roman position, “From the days of Cyprian down to the Reformation the essence of the Church was sought ever increasingly in its external visible organization. The Church Fathers conceived of the catholic Church as comprehending all true branches of the Church of Christ, and as bound together in an external and visible unity, which had its unifying bond in the college of bishops. The conception of the Church as an external organization became more prominent as time went on.”1

The tendency of ecclesiology in the Roman Church before the Reformation and to a large extent ever since has been an emphasis on the external character of the church. This had its rise in the idea that the church is essentially theocratic, a continuation of God’s purpose toward Israel. This in turn was built on the spiritualizing system of interpretation fostered by Augustinian amillennialism. While amillennialism does not lead necessarily to the conclusions drawn by the Roman Church, the conclusions that were reached would have been impossible without the amillennial viewpoint.

Some of the more particular conclusions of the Roman Church are traced to appropriation of Jewish promises in the Old Testament. The sacramental idea received much of its impetus from the Levitical rites and the Aaronic priesthood. From the Protestant point of view, of course, much of Romanism is derived unabashed from paganism, and for this, amillennialism is not responsible. On the other hand, a literal interpretation of the prophetic Word would have ruled out paganism as well as the ritualism. The complicated religious rites and ceremonies for the most part did not come into the church until amillennialism had become the dominant viewpoint. The Ecclesiology of the Reformation

The Protestant movement begun in the Reformation was in large measure corrective of the abuses which had become prevalent in the Roman system. The sacraments were overhauled and reduced to New Testament Biblical formulas. The priesthood was restored to all believers. The hierarchical system was changed in most of Protestantism to Biblical patterns. Justification became a work of God in true believers instead of a work mediated through the church. The Protestant movement, however, was not able to extricate itself completely from Roman influence. This is evidenced in eschatology, in the long disputes over transubstantiation, and more particularly in continuing to a large extent the emphasis on the external church. While most of the Reformers did not limit the church to its external form and recognized the true body of believers as such, the tendency to organization and attempts to enter the political arena early were in evidence.

The Reformation did not change essentially the concept of the church. For most Reformers it was still largely a visible entity with its roots in Judaism and its boundaries including all the saints. The church was thought of as the logical successor of Israel, the inheritor of its spiritual promises. Indeed, the church was considered to have begun in the Old Testament, sometimes with Adam, and by others with Abraham. Calvin refers to the saints of the Old and New Testament under the one title of the “Church.”2 Calvin further states explicitly: “The covenant of all the fathers is so far from differing substantially from ours, that it is the very same; it only varies in the administration…. Moreover, the apostle makes the Israelites equal to us, not only in the grace of the covenant, but also in the signification of the sacraments…. Wherefore it is certainly and clearly proved, that the same promises of an eternal and heavenly life, with which the Lord now favours us, were not only communicated to the Jews, but even sealed and confirmed by sacraments truly spiritual.”3 Calvin held that the New Testament church differed from saints in the Old Testament principally in degree of revelation. In the Old Testament they had the shadows, but the realities were revealed in the New Testament. Essentially Calvin along with many of the Reformers continued the basic Roman conception that the saints of the Old and New Testament belong to the same entity, the church. In order to achieve this end, however, the Reformers had to deny to the Jews all their distinctive promises and had to nullify the hope of Israel for an earthly kingdom of righteousness. Calvin, for instance, refers to “the folly of the whole nation of the Jews in the present age, in expecting any earthly kingdom of the Messiah….”4 His conclusions were an outgrowth of amillennial theology and its method of interpretation. It is quite clear that the leaders of the Reformation continued in the main the basic Roman idea of the church as the successor of Israel as well as being one with Israel. The church, in their viewpoint, varies in details and in administration, but is essentially the same in both Testaments. somewhat to the position of Augustine. This is defined by Berkhof as a denial of the Roman position that the kingdom of God is identical to the visible church, and a return to the concept that it is identical to the invisible church, i.e., the whole company of believers.6 This is essentially the position of amillennial conservatives today. Liberal theologians following the lead of Ritschl have regarded the kingdom of God not as a congregation of believers but a system of ethical ideals. The advance of the kingdom for them is the advance of ethical principles. Augustine, Rome, the Reformers, and the modern liberal agree, however, in denouncing that the kingdom of God is essentially Messianic, the rule of Jesus Christ as the Son of David following the second advent. They emphasize that the kingdom of God is on earth now, and its advance and ultimate triumph is the advance and triumph of the church. Amillennial Ecclesiology in Relation to Israel

The most obvious fact of amillennial ecclesiology is that it denies any millennial period following the church age in which righteousness and peace will flourish on earth. All the prophetic anticipations of such a period are either considered conditional and therefore uncertain, or are to be fulfilled in the church in the present age. The denial of a future millennium is based on the method of giving a spiritualized interpretation to Old Testament kingdom prophecies. While all amillenarians are not agreed on the details of the interpretation of the Old Testament kingdom promises, the same general principles are usually recognized by all of them.

The amillennial ecclesiology denies to Israel any future as a nation. Israel is never to be a political entity in the world in fulfillment of the promises of a glorious kingdom-period. Promises in the Old Testament such as Jeremiah 31:35-37 which assure Israel’s continuance as “a nation before me forever,” are interpreted merely in the racial concept or as fulfilled spiritually in the sense that the church shall continue forever. Allis, while he does not seem to expound the passage directly, links it with the new covenant with the teaching simply that “the prophet is picturing the ultimate and final state of God’s people.”7 The interpretation stultifies any hope of Israel for a national future. Their only hope is spiritual, by entering into faith in Christ in the present inter-advent age.

Two forms of interpretation seem to prevail among the amillenarians in regard to the form in which Israel’s promises shall be fulfilled. The traditional Reformed position as illustrated in Calvin is that the church takes Israel’s place as its spiritual successor. Calvin regarded Israel’s hopes of a future kingdom as without warrant—in fact, he held that this hope was a result of their spiritual blindness imposed as a judgment because of their rejection of Christ. Calvin stated, “And the folly of the whole nation of the Jews in the present age, in expecting an earthly kingdom of the Messiah, would be equally extraordinary, had not the Scriptures long before predicted that they would thus be punished for their rejection of the gospel.”8 Calvin’s interpretation is based partially on the idea that Israel had erroneously interpreted the promises of a future kingdom on earth literally, and partially on the thought that Israel had forfeited these promises by disobedience. He seems to put most of his argument on the former point, however. Calvin wrote, “The point of controversy between us and these persons, is this: they maintain that the possession of the land of Canaan was accounted by the Israelites their supreme and ultimate blessedness, but that to us, since the revelation of Christ, it is a figure of the heavenly inheritance. We, on the contrary, contend, that in the earthly possession which they enjoyed, they contemplated, as in a mirror, the future inheritance which they believed to be prepared for them in heaven.”9 Calvin held, then, in the main, that the literal interpretation of Israel’s promises was wrong in the first place. They were intended to teach Israelites their prospect in heaven rather than in earth.

Allis, while an ardent Calvinist, places most of his argument on the point that the promises were conditional, and not fulfilled because of Israel’s disobedience and rejection of Christ. The fulfillment of the Abrahamic covenant according to Allis is conditioned upon obedience. Allis states, “It is true that, in the express terms of the covenant with Abraham, obedience is not stated as a condition. But that obedience was presupposed is clearly indicated by two facts. The one is that obedience is the precondition of blessing under all circumstances…. The second fact is that in the case of Abraham the duty of obedience is particularly stressed.”10

Allis agrees with Calvin, however, in regarding the New Testament church as the true Israel, the organic continuance of the church of the Old Testament. He denounces in unsparing terms those who hold that Israel must mean Israel: “Carrying to an almost unprecedented extreme that literalism which is characteristic of Millenarianism, they [the Brethren Movement] insisted that Israel must mean Israel, and that the kingdom promises in the Old Testament concern Israel and are to be fulfilled to Israel.”11

Allis is guilty, in this instance, of a serious misrepresentation. It so happens that there is considerable opposition to Calvin’s view not only among premillenarians but among postmillenarians and even amillenarians. Charles Hodge, for instance, a representative postmillenarian, regards practically all the New Testament references to Israel as referring to those of that race, i.e., not the church as such. Hodge states in regard to Romans 11:26, which Allis takes for granted is allusion to the church: “Israel, here, from the context, must mean the Jewish people, and all Israel, the whole nation.”12

William Hendriksen, Professor of New Testament Literature at Calvin Seminary, a well-known amillenarian, in expounding Romans 11:25-26 also holds that Israel means Israel—the elect of Israel as he puts it.13 Allis’ “unprecedented extreme” turns out to be somewhat normal even among fellow amillenarians. The Roman Catholic idea that the church is the true Israel in fact is fading from contemporary amillenarians. The essentially postmillennial idea that Israel will be incorporated in the church and her promises fulfilled to her in a spiritualized sense seems to be gaining popularity.

While considerable difference of opinion exists among amillenarians regarding the best method of disposing of the mass of Old Testament prophecies which seem to indicate a future earthly kingdom for Israel, they agree in the main principle, that is, that these promises will not be fulfilled to Israel in a kingdom age to follow the present dispensation. Whether cancelled because of rejection of Christ as Messiah or spiritualized according to Calvin’s formula, amillennialism with one voice condemns any literal fulfillment of these promises. Amillennial Ecclesiology in Relation to Dispensational Distinctions

In addition to nullifying most of the meaning of Israel’s promises, amillennialism does not seem to grasp many of the distinctive New Testament revelations concerning the church. While amillenarians do not deny the concept of the church as an organism in contrast to the church as an institution, they do not find much distinctive in this form of revelation. It is simply the contrast between reality and profession, or between the church visible and invisible. It is not something new, distinct, and unique.

Dispensational distinctions such as the mystery character of the entire present age are definitely denied by amillenarians. For them the present age is clearly anticipated in the kingdom prophecies of the Old Testament. Premillenarians, on the other hand, usually regard the present age as hid from Old Testament prophets, and constituting a new and unrevealed development in the plan of God. All along the line of important doctrines relating to the church, the amillenarians ignore or minimize the distinctive truth relating to the church. The fact of the new creation in which the church is related to the resurrection of Christ, the doctrine of the baptism of the Holy Spirit as forming the church into the body of Christ, the unique ground of justification based on being “in Christ,” the universal indwelling of the Holy Spirit in every believer in this age, and the distinctive prophetic hope of the church are qualified or denied by amillennial ecclesiology. Many precious truths are lost in the broad generalizations which characterize the amillennial treatment of ecclesiology. Conclusion

Taken as a whole, it is clear that amillennialism does not yield the same type of ecclesiology as either premillennialism or postmillennialism. The millennial issue is far more pointed in ecclesiology than is generally recognized. In fact, it is not too much to state that many of the millennial issues such as the question of fulfillment of promises to Israel are the touchstones of theology as a whole as well as of ecclesiology. Outside of eschatology itself, no area is more vitally related to millennialism than ecclesiology.

Dallas, Texas

(Series to be continued in the January-March Number, 1951)

This article was taken from the Theological Journal Library CD and posted with permission of Galaxie Software.

1 L. Berkhof, Systematic Theology, p. 562. The modern Roman Church also identifies the mystical with the visible church. Pope Pius XII in an encyclical letter issued in August, 1950 denounced those in the Roman Church who hold “they are not bound by the doctrine…which teaches that the mystical body of Christ and the Roman Catholic Church are one and the same things…and reduce to a meaningless formula the necessity of belonging to the true church in order to gain salvation.” Cf. Time, Sept 4, 1950, pp. 68, 71.

2 John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion (Philadelphia: Presbyterian Board of Christian Education, 1936), I, 503.

3 Ibid., I, 466, 468, 470.

4 Ibid., I, 488.

6 Loc. cit.

7 Oswald T. Allis, Prophecy and the Church, p. 238.

8 Calvin, op. cit., I, 488.

9 Ibid., I, 490.

10 Allis, op. cit., p. 33.

11 Ibid., p. 218.

12 Charles Hodge, Commentary on Romans, p. 589.

13 William Hendriksen, And So All Israel Shall Be Saved, p. 33.


TOPICS: Charismatic Christian; Evangelical Christian; Theology
KEYWORDS: amillennialism; dispensationalism; millennial; millennialism; premillennialism
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To: one Lord one faith one baptism
a “jew” as you call them must be BAPTIZED to be of God. in Christ, there is salvation, outside of Christ there is NO salvation. baptism is how one is put into Christ. really man, get a refund on your Catholic “education”

Christ dwells in our hearts through faith. Baptism, getting wet, does not put one in Christ.

161 posted on 08/16/2014 9:29:41 AM PDT by metmom (...fixing our eyes on Jesus, the Author and Perfecter of our faith...)
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To: one Lord one faith one baptism; boatbums
I gave you an example of where your own religion teaches Mary is at the same time the mother of ...

you made the same mistake several of us made. He or she is not a Catholic, which became evident later after I introduced the Catholic catechism into evidence. My guess is church of Christ but it could be another super secessionist denomination, sect, movement or cult.

162 posted on 08/16/2014 10:21:05 AM PDT by af_vet_1981 (The bus came by and I got on, That's when it all began)
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To: af_vet_1981

My point was the introduction in James leaves no doubt.

Saints and apostles? Who is arguing against that?


163 posted on 08/16/2014 2:05:46 PM PDT by redleghunter (But let your word 'yes be 'yes,' and your 'no be 'no.' Anything more than this is from the evil one.)
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To: redleghunter
My point was the introduction in James leaves no doubt.

concur, it is obvious what diaspora means in all three places and James makes it crystal clear. Saints and apostles? Who is arguing against that?

I thought perhaps you objected to my "James" reference instead of "St. James" :)

164 posted on 08/16/2014 2:15:23 PM PDT by af_vet_1981 (The bus came by and I got on, That's when it all began)
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To: af_vet_1981

Ah. LOL. I used an online Catholic Bible from my Bible app:)

An older DRA version. So more formal for our modern eyes. I think it is the same DRA version my parents read from at home at night before prayers.


165 posted on 08/16/2014 2:23:01 PM PDT by redleghunter (But let your word 'yes be 'yes,' and your 'no be 'no.' Anything more than this is from the evil one.)
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To: GGpaX4DumpedTea; CynicalBear
WM: “They are seeing Protestant churches around them falling to liberalism and acting in complete defiance of Scripture.”

GG: Let me ‘correct’ this comment...’They are seeing Catholics, including the Pope, falling into liperalism and acting in complete defiance of Scripture.’

I did not include the RCC in the original comment because they are way past the point of no return. They embraced a figurative system of interpretation and rejected Scripture as the rule of the faith long ago. The Protestant churches were united in their belief in Sola Scriptura, but the "baggage" they carried with them when they rejected Romanism included a figurative interpretation of prophecy and a replacement theology. Now we see the fruits of this in their churches.

As their churches fall away I still believe a great many of the conservative Reformed who still hold to the belief in Sola Scriptura will see the truth in premillennialism and join the most consistantly conservative Christian Churches, the Evangelical Christians.

166 posted on 08/16/2014 3:34:38 PM PDT by wmfights
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To: redleghunter
So what I laid out above is a boiler plate for an actual discussion on eschatology. But alas, these threads usually devolve into someone’s pet project or pet rice bowl.

True, while the way some RCs talk you would think Catholic teaching does not hold Jews as a special distinct people for which God will do a special work of grace.

674 The glorious Messiah's coming is suspended at every moment of history until his recognition by "all Israel", for "a hardening has come upon part of Israel" in their "unbelief" toward Jesus.569

The "full inclusion" of the Jews in the Messiah's salvation, in the wake of "the full number of the Gentiles",572 will enable the People of God to achieve "the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ", in which "God may be all in all".573

675 Before Christ's second coming the Church must pass through a final trial that will shake the faith of many believers.574 The persecution that accompanies her pilgrimage on earth575 will unveil the "mystery of iniquity" in the form of a religious deception offering men an apparent solution to their problems at the price of apostasy from the truth. The supreme religious deception is that of the Antichrist, a pseudo-messianism by which man glorifies himself in place of God and of his Messiah come in the flesh.576 -http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p1s2c2a7.htm

167 posted on 08/16/2014 6:17:43 PM PDT by daniel1212 (Come to the Lord Jesus as a contrite damned+destitute sinner, trust Him to save you, then live 4 Him)
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To: daniel1212

Well that was very premillenial of the catechism. Proof of point one should read their mail first:)


168 posted on 08/16/2014 8:00:21 PM PDT by redleghunter (But let your word 'yes be 'yes,' and your 'no be 'no.' Anything more than this is from the evil one.)
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To: redleghunter
Well that was very premillenial of the catechism.

Thanks for posting the catechism. It was good for us to agree on what we can agree on. Catholic teaching does not attribute a label so I will not call it amillennial(although it is closer to that now), and it holds that premillennialism cannot be safely taught. In the 1940s, the Vatican declared that “millenarianism,” another term for “premillennialism,” cannot be safely taught (see Catechism, no. 676).

I simply don't know yet which eschatological view will be revealed as true later. I just know it will happen and I eagerly wait for the coming of Messiah according to the Scriptures. When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel? And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power. 8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth. And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven. Then returned they unto Jerusalem from the mount called Olivet, which is from Jerusalem a sabbath day's journey.

169 posted on 08/17/2014 8:09:40 AM PDT by af_vet_1981 (The bus came by and I got on, That's when it all began)
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To: redleghunter
Well that was very premillenial of the catechism. Proof of point one should read their mail first:) I am sure many RCs are surprised to see that affirmatiom of Rm. 11 . However, this is open to interpretation by RCs.

While Rome has not dogmatically defined this issue, it rejects postmillennialism and holds to one form of Amillennialism:

676 The Antichrist's deception already begins to take shape in the world every time the claim is made to realize within history that messianic hope which can only be realized beyond history through the eschatological judgment. The Church has rejected even modified forms of this falsification of the kingdom to come under the name of millenarianism,577 especially the "intrinsically perverse" political form of a secular messianism.578

And upholds tribulationism:

677 The Church will enter the glory of the kingdom only through this final Passover, when she will follow her Lord in his death and Resurrection.579 The kingdom will be fulfilled, then, not by a historic triumph of the Church through a progressive ascendancy, but only by God's victory over the final unleashing of evil, which will cause his Bride to come down from heaven.580 God's triumph over the revolt of evil will take the form of the Last Judgment after the final cosmic upheaval of this passing world.581

This preterist defines the different positions though as a tentative postribulationist disagree with his conclusion, but in which he states,

Dispensational Premillennialism is considered by the non-dispensationalist to be a system of interpretation that came into existence during the early 1500's as a counter-reformation that was administered by the Roman Catholic Church. A group in the Catholic church called Jesuits were the leaders of this movement. Their proper title is the "Society of Jesus." They were first called, Compania de Jesus, which is Spanish for "Military Company of Jesus." In 1585, a Jesuit priest named Francisco Ribera started a theory that the Pope could not be the Antichrist or Man of Sin, because that was yet to happen in the future. He took the Seventy Weeks of Daniel and originated the Gap Theory, which will be discussed later. Ribera was later aided by two other Jesuits, Cardinal Robert Bellarmine and Luis de Alcazar. Later this theory was expanded through the efforts of many others, and especially through the efforts of John N. Darby of the Plymouth Brethren, and C. I. Scofield of the Presbyterians. The Dispensationalist, however, conceive of their beliefs either as a needed refinement of historical premillennialism or as rediscovered truth. They differ so much from other premillennialists that writers often list them as a separate group rather than as an alternate form of premillennialism. The following is a list of the distinctive beliefs of the dispensationalists. http://www.mountainretreatorg.net/eschatology/eschatol.shtml

170 posted on 08/17/2014 1:11:47 PM PDT by daniel1212 (Come to the Lord Jesus as a contrite damned+destitute sinner, trust Him to save you, then live 4 Him)
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To: af_vet_1981

back from a short weekend break and see you are posting on the Sabbath day. does that violate the commandment?


171 posted on 08/17/2014 7:18:03 PM PDT by one Lord one faith one baptism
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To: one Lord one faith one baptism
back from a short weekend break and see you are posting on the Sabbath day. does that violate the commandment?

the Pharisees said unto him, Behold, why do they on the sabbath day that which is not lawful?

172 posted on 08/17/2014 7:33:35 PM PDT by af_vet_1981 (The bus came by and I got on, That's when it all began)
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To: boatbums

the absolute shame of dispensationalism is the teaching dishonors Jesus Christ and His establishing the new covenant in His blood, thus making the first obsolete.
so those who reject the historical Christian faith that Jesus fulfilled the Jeremiah prophecy as the writer of Hebrews so clearly explains in Chapters 8 and 9, are looking for another covenant with “Israel”.

lets see what else Jeremiah had to say and see if it is future or Jesus fulfilled it:

32:37-40 behold, I will gather them from all the countries to which I drove them in my anger and my wrath and my indignation; I will bring them back into this place and I will make them dwell in safety. and they shall be my people and I will be their God. I will give them one heart and one way, that they may fear me forever for their own good and their children after them. I will make with them an everlasting covenant that I will not turn away from doing good to them and I will put fear of me in their hearts that they may not turn from me.

future??? hardly.

he has gathered the lost sheep of Israel from every country where the Gospel has gone forth, just as he commanded in Matthew 28. those in Christ dwell securely and we dwell in safety knowing Jesus will lose no one the Father has given Him ( John 6:35-40 ) He has given us a new heart, with the Spirit of the living God written on our hearts for all men to see ( 2 Cor 3:2-3 ) and most importantly, He has given us “one way”, Jesus Christ Himself ( John 14:6 )finally, He gave us the eternal covenant in His blood and since this covenant is eternal, it results in our inheritance being eternal ( Hebrews 9:15 )

what an insult to say there is some future covenant with Israel. Jesus Christ is the new and everlasting covenant, there is nothing to do but believe that and drop this 19th century foolishness.


173 posted on 08/17/2014 7:47:26 PM PDT by one Lord one faith one baptism
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To: redleghunter

it’s off topic, but I always find it interesting people who attack the Catholic Faith as false, always use the Catholic Fathers if they think it’s supports them in some way.
for example, I could never see myself citing Joseph Smith for any reason, since he and I could not take the Lord’s Supper together. “keeping company” is not the test, the Eucharist is.


174 posted on 08/17/2014 7:50:49 PM PDT by one Lord one faith one baptism
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To: metmom; redleghunter

Christ dwells in our hearts through faith. Baptism, getting wet, does not put one in Christ

hmm, St Paul says it does in Galatians 3:27 and Romans 6:1-4. In fact, I can’t find anywhere in the Scriptures where one is placed “in Christ”, other than by baptism.

finally it’s sad that there are those that claim baptism makes someone “wet”, when St Peter says it “now saves you”.


175 posted on 08/17/2014 7:54:30 PM PDT by one Lord one faith one baptism
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To: redleghunter

And the remnant of the promise can just as easily be grafted back in

that is correct, and if they are not grafted back then they are not part of Israel. the country called Israel in the middle east probably is made up of 99% people while having Jewish blood, reject the new covenant in Jesus’s blood, therefore they have not been grafted back in and therefore they are not part of Israel as Paul explains in Romans. ( are you listening dispensationalists? )


176 posted on 08/17/2014 7:59:22 PM PDT by one Lord one faith one baptism
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To: one Lord one faith one baptism
You continue to show NO knowledge of what Dispensational thinking is. The dishonoring insults are coming from those who insist that God breaks His promises and eternal unconditional covenants. It's pure foolishness that becomes more apparent the longer you continue to post. Do a little study first before you think you can condemn everyone who doesn't think like you do!

Do you think that there will be no new heavens and new earth wherein dwells righteousness? Do you imagine the world is right now at peace, there are no wars, swords have been replaced with plowshares, babies play near adder nests, bears and lions sleep besides lambs and calves??? Boy, will YOU ever be surprised!

177 posted on 08/17/2014 8:43:04 PM PDT by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to Him.)
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To: one Lord one faith one baptism
1 Peter 3:21-22 Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, with angels, authorities, and powers having been subjected to him.

Not water baptism.

If water baptism saved, then Christ died for nothing.

All people would have to do is be wetted down, and they'd be good to go.

178 posted on 08/17/2014 8:45:57 PM PDT by metmom (...fixing our eyes on Jesus, the Author and Perfecter of our faith...)
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To: metmom

it is interesting that those who follow the 16th century tradition of men, rather than the Apostolic Faith found in the Scriptures, use the term “water baptism”.

the Scriptures never use this term and never use the term “spirit baptism”. the Scriptures only speak of “baptism”.

because just as there is only One Lord, and One Faith, there is only ONE BAPTISM.


179 posted on 08/18/2014 8:33:19 PM PDT by one Lord one faith one baptism
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