Why do Protestant lay people hate clergy?

[michaelwlf3]

I am coming up on my first year as an ordained minister in a continuing Anglican church, and I have noticed that participating on political forums (even when the topic is religious) I find that my opinions and postings more often than not generate more hatred than anything else. Among the things I often hear are that the laity are the real priests and that I am a Pharisee, that my vocation disqualifies me from offering an opinion on anything Christian because I am too narrow minded, and (my personal favorite) because I look too Catholic I must be a child molester.

Are these people really Christians?

[Elsie]

We don’t really HATE Luther; we just Blame him for them damned Prots and Hitler; too!

[Elsie]

“Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the catholic faith.
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All who adhere to the Creeds hold to the “catholic” faith, the most basic of beliefs among Christians.

Even the goofy RCCatholicism claims about Mary and her superpowers?

[wmfights]

However, the unity in the face of attacks from outsiders is important.

Again I will make two points. One, the RCC and the Orthodox are not allies of Evangelical Christians. An example of how nothing has changed is what the Russian Orthodox are encouraging the Ruissian govt to do to Evangelical Christians. The second point is we do not share a common faith. We do both recognize Jesus Christ as Lord, but the RCC is a hierarchy which puts itself equal to Scripture and has implemented a sacramental system as well as a works based requirement for salvation. Evangelical Christianity believes in the 5 Solas.

Also, specifically to Michael's case, he as an Anglican is attacked as being not sufficiently "P" enough

Clearly sophomoric whining from someone who can't stand any disagreement. Doctrine does matter and unity with those who don't hold to the same faith deserves criticism.

[Cronos]

Thanks for quoting from the Bible to me, a Christian

[xone]

So what really is your point? TJATL was a bad thing to write? Noted and agreed. That TJATL was the only anti-Semitic literature available? That the Nazi's wouldn't have persecuted the Jews had it not been for Luther? That TJATL was so compelling it drove poor innocent Hitler to be come a monster? TJATL redeems Hitler and his ilk because it was all Luther's fault?

I suspect the last, but mindreading isn't allowed. The Book of Concord was enacted in 1577. Not surprisingly, TJATL wasn't a part of it. Official systemic anti-Semitism was gone in 1577, when will the Catholic church be shed of it?

[xone]

If a person is drowning

Concur, even if it is such a thin straw.

[OneWingedShark]

Yet arthurus was talking about groups that only define themselves as “not C”

Nope; he mentioned them but the reply was specifically to the following:

One of the prayers we use is that we ask God to lead all people who call themselves Christian into the way of truth. It’s in one of the older Prayer Books, I don’t think it is used any longer. Those seeking the truth will find it.

His reply:

They can’t. For too many their very definition of themselves is”non-Catholics.” Without the Catholic Church their own churches would vaporize.

That is what directly conflicts with what Gos said through Jeremiah:

And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart.

By saying that they cannot find God (because those churches define themselves as not-Catholic) he rejects the very idea of a personal God who will fulfill His word Draw near to God, and he will draw near to you. Cleanse your hands, you sinners, and purify your hearts, you double-minded. Lament and mourn and weep. Let your laughter be turned into mourning and your joy into dejection. Humble yourselves before the Lord, and he will exalt you. (James 4:8-10) — in that sense his statement is such that it is akin to calling God a liar.

Or, if his statement is to be taken to mean that the Catholic church is the way, the truth and the life, then it is idolatry because the only thing that is those things is a who: Jesus Himself; as He said (John 14:6): “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

[Bryanw92]

>>I won’t “serve” one... — but the pastor/priest is not to be served. He is one of the priesthood of believers, a ministerial priest among priests, just as the nation of Israel was a holy nation of priests yet with ministerial priests. You do not serve him, he serves God and ministers along with you.

We are priests and we are servants at the same time. I was talking in the context of pastors who think it is the job of the laity to wash his feet, but he sends his associate pastors out to do his foot washing for him because the laity are too far “below” his station in the church.

[Cronos]

well, CB, leaving aside religious dogma etc. -- you must realise that Michael is an Anglican as he stated, an Anglican deacon

Anglicans, and Lutherans too are different from Calvinists, Baptists, Congregationalists etc. in different matters of the Eucharist and dogma, and specifically in this case, the difference is in the role of the clergy.

Both Anglicans and Lutherans hold to Apostolic Succession -- so the newer groups of Protestants reject them

What he is complaining about in this specific case is that posters on internet forums like this one reject his Protestant beliefs just because they disagree with him about the nature of the ministerial priesthood.

Those who don't agree with him about the nature of the ministerial priesthood shouldn't treat him as dirt just because he disagrees with them

[MamaB]

You are right. I think of the early settlers of our Old West when people might be the only ones around for miles and miles. Churches, if any, were many miles from ranches or farms. I love westerns especially the mountain men era. They complained if they saw another person for weeks or even months. A church building would be days away but they had God’s handiwork every day. They worshiped God in all His glory. I think God appreciated that. I am reading The Last Mountain Man series by William W. Johnstone. He makes that period of our history come alive. God bless.

[Cronos]

hi Karl — what do you mean “It is beyond what any human could write”? — it was written by humans, but inspired by God. The concepts are God’s, but they were written by frail humans. That’s why we argue over our misunderstandings — compounding by our frail individual understanding of such a supernatural concept. Even more so, the Word of God, Jesus Christ is completely beyond our understanding beyond the knowledge that He is God

[af_vet_1981]

So what really is your point? TJATL was a bad thing to write? Noted and agreed.

harleyD posed the question " What's to say that God didn't appoint Martin Luther in much the same way?" with reference to apostolic succession. My point is that Martin Luther, by his own words and fruit, proved otherwise. You can make the same case for Judas Iscariot or any evil pope, cardinal, or bishop, none of which extinguishes a true seed and remnant of apostolic succession (always other alternative candidates who are godly). Alternatively you could argue that once the original Jewish Apostles passed, the Gentiles who took over irretrievably corrupted the churchs unto this day, making up a new religion, and reforming it for every generation in a futile attempt to return to the genuine churches of the first one or two centuries. But no, Martin Luther proved himself to be a false Christian apostle.

[Cronos]

No doubt there WOULD be Bible worshipers had we found the original autographs,

I disagree with that -- Christians have always believed that what the various Holy books in the Bible contain are divinely inspired, but not that God dictated it and the authors wrote it word for word

This is, as the Bible consists of various books written over millenia, but the Koran dates (as per islamic belief) to a fixed period of time. And, the believe that it was copied word for word exactly as Al-illah dictated it. This means that to them it is holy of itself. Also they hold that it was created before time, because oftheir flawed understanding of John 1

But we know that the Word of God is Jesus Christ and HE existed before time itself. The bible as in the collection of books did not exist before time itself

[OneWingedShark]

Yeshua spoke of a literal physical birth into an incorruptible body at the last trump, while Peter spoke of the Mikva that brings about the beginning of our Earthly spiritual journey. Neither of these cases create scriptural justification for a belief in “instantaneous eternal guaranteed salvation.”

There is no such guarantee to be found anywhere in the scriptures, no matter how severely one may misinterpret the words of any of the apostles.

Jesus: I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. (John 10:28)
This means that we cannot snatch ourselves from His hand, no? It also means a guarantee especially when the previous verse is taken into consideration; as for instantaneous prior in the chapter He said:

“Very truly, I tell you, I am the gate for the sheep. All who came before me are thieves and bandits; but the sheep did not listen to them. I am the gate. Whoever enters by me will be saved, and will come in and go out and find pasture. The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy. I came that they may have life, and have it abundantly.

Entering is an instantaneous event: one instant one is outside, the next inside.

---

Now, what you're probably thinking is that I'm mad because the Bible clearly says things about predestination — like in the first chapter of Ephesians: just as he [God] chose us in Christ before the foundation of the world to be holy and blameless before him in love.

You're forgetting some things though:

1. God is Bigger Than (before, outside, unbound) time; this is because for time to exist there has to be at least two atomic objects which can change in relation to each other, as that is essentially time: a measure of change.
2. If God is outside time, than everything He chooses is before the foundation of the world (and during and up-to-that-point) and after time ceases.
3. Jesus was and is God — (John 1:1-2, 14) In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. […] And the Word became flesh and lived among us, and we have seen his glory, the glory as of a father’s only son, full of grace and truth.
4. Therefore Jesus himself is outside of time and knows who are His sheep, those that know his voice, whom the father (a) chose, and (b) gave to Him before the founding of the world.
5. Even in this there is acknowledgment of a willful act:
   (John 1:12-13) But to all who received him, who believed in his name, he gave power to become children of God, who were born, not of blood or of the will of the flesh or of the will of man, but of God.

[Cronos]

CB — your post 729 is not fair. if he looks like a Catholic priest in public, that’s not relevant to his statement that posters on internet forums, who presumably don’t meet him in person, toss their anti-Catholic comments at him, when they are not relevant to him

[Cronos]

What are you talking about metmom?

He's saying that posters here ask him to change his image prior to even discussing Christ with him. And then your post goes on a tangent, first insulting him (as your other posts frequently tend to do and then asking a sarcastic question

[Cronos]

How exactly do you, CB, know if Michael talks or acts like a Catholic?

[Cronos]

and CB, the following are all pictures of Protestant pastors

and of Protestant Churchs dating from fairly recently built

So, just because something doesn't fit the stereotype of image of some posters here of being Protestant, that doesn't mean that it is not Protestant. Protestants are of diverse beliefs and images

[xone]

But no, Martin Luther proved himself to be a false Christian apostle.

Something he never claimed to be BTW. Luther claimed as scriptures do, that the Apostles were THE Apostles and that was the end of them when John died.

[af_vet_1981]

Something he never claimed to be BTW

okay, call him an exCatholic priest who demonstrated exceptional wickedness. Both Luther and Hitler proved to be rebellious, ex-communicated Catholics who shared a common, ancient, hatred of the Jews you can source to the serpent in Genesis or dragon in Revelation. They led millions who invoked, and millions more who still invoke, their names in solidarity with their AntiSemitism.