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To: D-fendr

Sorry, can’t by the whole Mary thing. Mary is part of the creation. God has always been. Something finite (Mary) cannot give birth to something infinite, eternal, pre-existent to the creation (God). God has always been. God always will be. Mary cannot be greater than God.

Unless you start thinking like Mormons, who say we can eventually become Gods ourselves, which would imply that somehow Mary gave birth to a being that evolved into God. But again, where did Mary come from if God had not already existed.

Scripture is clear. God the Father, Son and Holy Spirit have always been and always will be. Mary is definitely blessed, but not greater than her son. Respect and honor is due her, but she was a part of the fallen creation, who needed a Savior as much as any other sinner. I thank Mary for her part, bearing the Son, being obedient to God, her (and Joseph) being of such character and devotion to be given this per elide, and for suffering as she did at the foot of the cross. An exceptional woman for any time frame... But I will never ask her to play any sort of intercessory roll in my life. She will never hear a prayer from me. Those are for Jesus alone, as my Saviour and intercessor.

Mary was the vessel used by God to bring Jesus, God incarnate, into our finite existence, but Jesus existed from the beginning, as part of the trinity.


413 posted on 06/05/2014 8:02:26 PM PDT by The Bard (http://www.myfbc.com)
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To: The Bard
Thanks for your reply.

Something finite (Mary) cannot give birth to something infinite, eternal, pre-existent to the creation (God). God has always been. God always will be. Mary cannot be greater than God.

Mother of does not mean greater than. It just means gave birth to. The Incarnation is just that, God Incarnate, the Word become flesh.

Yes, it is incomprehensible. But that is what happened. The Word became flesh, born of a woman. You cannot have this without: the Word, become flesh, born of a woman. It requires at the least God and woman, mother of, born of.

Why did God choose to appear in this way? Why not just come down from the sky? Why not just materialize from nothing? We do not know. We do know, if we are Christian, that He chose to be incarnate, in the flesh. God the father is Mary's father; God the Holy Spirit is Mary's spouse; God the Son is Mary's son.

That this is hard to comprehend is understandable. But this is what Christians believe.

Do you see? Do you at least see that this is what happened according to Holy Scripture and according to our faith?

414 posted on 06/05/2014 10:28:20 PM PDT by D-fendr (Deus non alligatur sacramentis sed nos alligamur.)
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To: The Bard
Respect and honor is due her, but she was a part of the fallen creation, who needed a Savior as much as any other sinner.

But when Rome becomes the autocratic supreme judge of what Truth is, including worship, then as in other sola ecclesia groups (Mormon etc.) additions of the Scriptures can be made as desired, and all things made conformable to her doctrine, and which presumption filters down to the laity.

And these things, brethren, I have in a figure transferred to myself and to Apollos for your sakes; that ye might learn in us not to think of men above that which is written, that no one of you be puffed up for one against another. (1 Corinthians 4:6)

"We must never adore her; that is for God alone. But otherwise we cannot honor her to excess, because it is not possible to overestimate the privileges God gave her in making her His own Mother. “

"As Mother of the Word Incarnate, Mary was elevated to a certain equality with the Heavenly Father." -

"The union between the Immaculata and the Holy Spirit is so inexpressible, yet so perfect, that the Holy Spirit acts only by the Most Blessed Virgin, his Spouse.

to her, Jesus owes His Precious Blood...Next to God, she deserves the highest praise....no creature, can ever be compared to her:.. there is no grace which Mary cannot dispose of as her own, which is not given to her for this purpose." "

According to Eadmer (A.D. 1060–1124), an English monk and student of Anselm, “sometimes salvation is quicker if we remember Mary's name then if we invoked the name of the Lord Jesus...

“He who is under the protection of Mary will be saved; he who is not will be lost ..ly loving and solicitous for our salvation ... My Queen and my Advocate with thy Son, whom I dare not approach “

But by her compassion for her Divine Son she had to suffer, as He did, all the consequences of sin. It was not only during the Passion that Jesus and Mary suffered for our sins, for all their lives that heartrending vision was before them in every detail, and never for a moment forgotten.

“The power thus put into her (Mary’s) hands is all but unlimited. How unerringly right, then, are Christian souls when they turn to Mary for help...

Mary is the sealed fountain and the faithful spouse of the Holy Spirit where only he may enter...She is the sanctuary and resting-place of the Blessed Trinity...the holy City of God, the greatness of the power which she wields over one who is God cannot be conceived...Mary has authority over the angels and the blessed in heaven...God gave her the power and the mission of assigning to saints the thrones made vacant by the apostate angels who fell away through pride....all the angels in heaven unceasingly call out to her...They greet her countless times each day with the angelic greeting, "Hail, Mary", while prostrating themselves before her, begging her as a favour to honour them with one of her requests...The whole world is filled with her glory,...

."Limitless is the difference between God's servants and His Mother.

"When therefore we read in the writings of Saint Bernard, Saint Bernardine, Saint Bonaventure, and others that all in heaven and on earth, even God himself, is subject to the Blessed Virgin, they mean that the authority which God was pleased to give her is so great that she seems to have the same power as God. Her prayers and requests are so powerful with him that he accepts them as commands in the sense that he never resists his dear mother’s prayer because it is always humble and conformed to his will... "

"We were condemned through the fault of one woman; we are saved through the merits of another woman. Just as Eve was the root of death for everyone, so Mary was the source of life for everyone.

Sources .

One would have a hard time in Bible times explaining kneeling before a statue and praising the entity it represented in the unseen world, and as having Divine powers and glory, and making offerings and beseeching such for Heavenly help, directly accessed by mental prayer. Moses, put down those rocks! I was only engaging in hyper dulia, not adoring her. Can't you tell the difference?


422 posted on 06/06/2014 8:58:05 AM PDT by daniel1212 (Come to the Lord Jesus as a contrite damned+destitute sinner, trust Him to save you, then live 4 Him)
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