“Which category do you fall into? I personally do not fall into either.”
Where does Revelation say that everyone who is part of the first resurrection was a martyr? It doesn’t say that. It says he saw those that sat upon the thrones AND those who were martyred. It doesn’t say “I saw those who sat upon the thrones, who were martyred”. Since we know from the other descriptions of the first resurrection that it includes the entire church, living and dead, there is no reason to try to read such a contradiction into this verse, except to serve your own purposes.
“One thing I have noticed in “Paul’s” resurrections is his use of the word “we,” as if he expected to be alive at the first resurrection. All the apostles thought the first resurrection was imminent, with good reason. Jesus told them it would occur in their generation.”
Nonsense. He’s teaching the church, and saying we, in the sense of the entire body of the church. He knew some would be alive, but there is no suggestion that he thought he would be alive. That is really stretching.
“That is obviously a partial resurrection since it reads “many” instead of all.”
Does it know? Maybe you should check out the Hebrew word that is translated there as “many” and see how it is normally translated in the various other passages in the OT:
http://biblehub.com/hebrew/elleh_428.htm
Note that the vast majority of the translations of that word actually show it to mean “these”, not “many”. It seems to be a word which specifies a group more than summarizing that groups’ size. Unless you are trying to create contradictions in the Bible, it only makes sense to read it that way, rather than the way you are trying to read it.
“That is a complete resurrection, since Jesus used the words “all” instead of “many.” But, like the resurrection in Daniel, both good and bad are resurrected. Is that also the first resurrection?”
It’s both the first and the second, described in short succession, as they are closely related events. Obviously that is more likely than that God has lied in His descriptions of the events in other passages to confuse us.
“Then there is this, which I have always assumed to be the coming of Christ associated with the first resurrection:”
Again, a compound, less detailed description of the entire sequence of events. You seem to be under the impression that if God didn’t describe the entire sequence in exact detail in every passage, we should assume His other more detailed descriptions can just be dispensed with, but that is an unreasonable position.
“I hope you can see why I cannot reconcile those resurrections with the futurist interpretation of the resurrection.”
No, I can’t. I can see why you don’t want to reconcile them, because that would not support your view. You are perfectly able to reconcile them, though, if you cared to.
Neither did I.
>>>It says he saw those that sat upon the thrones AND those who were martyred. It doesn’t say “I saw those who sat upon the thrones, who were martyred”.<<<
That is what I said. Read my post again. I specifically labelled them by number, so there would be no misunderstanding.
>>>Since we know from the other descriptions of the first resurrection that it includes the entire church, living and dead, there is no reason to try to read such a contradiction into this verse, except to serve your own purposes.<<<
We don't know that. We only know certain individuals in the generation of Paul were to be resurrected. They were identified in Revelation 20, as stated in my post #61. Your assumption that it will occur in the future is simply that: an assumption.
>>>Nonsense. He’s teaching the church, and saying we, in the sense of the entire body of the church. He knew some would be alive, but there is no suggestion that he thought he would be alive. That is really stretching.<<<
Why would I be "stretching" it, when historians throughout the centuries (and the Christian haters) have concurred that all the apostles were expecting an imminent coming of Christ? Maybe you are "stretching it" by reading a futuristic fulfillment into a promise to that generation. Have you ever considered that?
>>>Does it know? Maybe you should check out the Hebrew word that is translated there as “many” and see how it is normally translated in the various other passages in the OT:<<<
How about these?
"Gen 21:34 And Abraham sojourned in the Philistines' land many days."
"Gen 24:25 She said moreover unto him, We have both straw and provender enough, and room to lodge in."
"Deu 2:10 The Emims dwelt therein in times past, a people great, and many, and tall, as the Anakims;"
"Jos 11:18 Joshua made war a long time with all those kings."
"1Sam 14:19 And it came to pass, while Saul talked unto the priest, that the noise that was in the host of the Philistines went on and increased: and Saul said unto the priest, Withdraw thine hand."
"Job 36:28 Which the clouds do drop and distil upon man abundantly."
I examined about half of the 441 verses where I found that Hebrew word, and not once did it mean "all," or "everyone," or "complete," or anything that would imply what you claim. Perhaps you could show us the passages you are referring to. BTW, I believe the Hebrew word for "many" is "rab," as in:
rab, rab; by contracted from 7231; abundant (in quantity, size, age, number, rank, quality)
>>>Note that the vast majority of the translations of that word actually show it to mean “these”, not “many”. It seems to be a word which specifies a group more than summarizing that groups’ size. Unless you are trying to create contradictions in the Bible, it only makes sense to read it that way, rather than the way you are trying to read it.<<<
I checked the following translations, and none use "these" in the place of "many:"
"And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt." (Dan 12:2 KJV)
"And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake: some to everlasting life and some to shame and everlasting contempt and abhorrence." (Dan 12:2 AMP)
"And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt." (Dan 12:2 ASV)
"And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame, to everlasting contempt." (Dan 12:2 DARBY)
"And many of those that sleep in the dust of the earth, shall awake: some unto life everlasting, and others unto reproach, to see it always." (Dan 12:2 DRA)
"And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt." (Dan 12:2 ESV)
"Many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake, some to eternal life, and some to shame and eternal contempt." (Dan 12:2 HCSB)
"Many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake; some shall live forever, others shall be an everlasting horror and disgrace." (Dan 12:2 NAB)
" Many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt." (Dan 12:2 NASB)
"Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt." (Dan 12:2 NIV)
"And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, Some to everlasting life, Some to shame and everlasting contempt." (Dan 12:2 NKJV)
"Many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt." (Dan 12:2 NRSV)
"And there will be many of those asleep in the ground of dust who will wake up, these to indefinitely lasting life and those to reproaches and to indefinitely lasting abhorrence." (Dan 12:2 NWT)
"And rabbim of them that sleep in the admat aphar (dust of the ground) shall awake, some to Chayyei Olam (Everlasting Life), and some to reproaches (shames) and Dera’on Olam (Everlasting Contempt, Abhorrence, Aversion, i.e., Everlasting Gehinnom.[T.N. Onesh Olam is here made more fearsome in light of the prevalent neglect of Scripture in favor of non-Biblical studies])." (Dan 12:2 OJB)
"And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt." (Dan 12:2 RSV)
"Many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt." (Dan 12:2 WEB)
"And the multitude of those sleeping in the dust of the ground do awake, some to life age-during, and some to reproaches--to abhorrence age-during." (Dan 12:2 YLT)
I think I understand what happened. I believe you accidentally picked the wrong Hebrew word, saw what you perceived was an error on my part, and ran with it. No problem.
>>>It’s both the first and the second, described in short succession, as they are closely related events.<<<
Where does it say that?
>>>Again, a compound, less detailed description of the entire sequence of events. You seem to be under the impression that if God didn’t describe the entire sequence in exact detail in every passage, we should assume His other more detailed descriptions can just be dispensed with, but that is an unreasonable position.<<<
As is your "rapture of the church" notion.
>>>You are perfectly able to reconcile them, though, if you cared to.<<<
If I say I cannot reconcile them with a futurist position, then I cannot, whether I care to, or not. I do not discard verses because I don't happen to like them.
Philip