Neither did I.
>>>It says he saw those that sat upon the thrones AND those who were martyred. It doesn’t say “I saw those who sat upon the thrones, who were martyred”.<<<
That is what I said. Read my post again. I specifically labelled them by number, so there would be no misunderstanding.
>>>Since we know from the other descriptions of the first resurrection that it includes the entire church, living and dead, there is no reason to try to read such a contradiction into this verse, except to serve your own purposes.<<<
We don't know that. We only know certain individuals in the generation of Paul were to be resurrected. They were identified in Revelation 20, as stated in my post #61. Your assumption that it will occur in the future is simply that: an assumption.
>>>Nonsense. He’s teaching the church, and saying we, in the sense of the entire body of the church. He knew some would be alive, but there is no suggestion that he thought he would be alive. That is really stretching.<<<
Why would I be "stretching" it, when historians throughout the centuries (and the Christian haters) have concurred that all the apostles were expecting an imminent coming of Christ? Maybe you are "stretching it" by reading a futuristic fulfillment into a promise to that generation. Have you ever considered that?
>>>Does it know? Maybe you should check out the Hebrew word that is translated there as “many” and see how it is normally translated in the various other passages in the OT:<<<
How about these?
"Gen 21:34 And Abraham sojourned in the Philistines' land many days."
"Gen 24:25 She said moreover unto him, We have both straw and provender enough, and room to lodge in."
"Deu 2:10 The Emims dwelt therein in times past, a people great, and many, and tall, as the Anakims;"
"Jos 11:18 Joshua made war a long time with all those kings."
"1Sam 14:19 And it came to pass, while Saul talked unto the priest, that the noise that was in the host of the Philistines went on and increased: and Saul said unto the priest, Withdraw thine hand."
"Job 36:28 Which the clouds do drop and distil upon man abundantly."
I examined about half of the 441 verses where I found that Hebrew word, and not once did it mean "all," or "everyone," or "complete," or anything that would imply what you claim. Perhaps you could show us the passages you are referring to. BTW, I believe the Hebrew word for "many" is "rab," as in:
rab, rab; by contracted from 7231; abundant (in quantity, size, age, number, rank, quality)
>>>Note that the vast majority of the translations of that word actually show it to mean “these”, not “many”. It seems to be a word which specifies a group more than summarizing that groups’ size. Unless you are trying to create contradictions in the Bible, it only makes sense to read it that way, rather than the way you are trying to read it.<<<
I checked the following translations, and none use "these" in the place of "many:"
"And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt." (Dan 12:2 KJV)
"And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake: some to everlasting life and some to shame and everlasting contempt and abhorrence." (Dan 12:2 AMP)
"And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt." (Dan 12:2 ASV)
"And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame, to everlasting contempt." (Dan 12:2 DARBY)
"And many of those that sleep in the dust of the earth, shall awake: some unto life everlasting, and others unto reproach, to see it always." (Dan 12:2 DRA)
"And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt." (Dan 12:2 ESV)
"Many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake, some to eternal life, and some to shame and eternal contempt." (Dan 12:2 HCSB)
"Many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake; some shall live forever, others shall be an everlasting horror and disgrace." (Dan 12:2 NAB)
" Many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt." (Dan 12:2 NASB)
"Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt." (Dan 12:2 NIV)
"And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, Some to everlasting life, Some to shame and everlasting contempt." (Dan 12:2 NKJV)
"Many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt." (Dan 12:2 NRSV)
"And there will be many of those asleep in the ground of dust who will wake up, these to indefinitely lasting life and those to reproaches and to indefinitely lasting abhorrence." (Dan 12:2 NWT)
"And rabbim of them that sleep in the admat aphar (dust of the ground) shall awake, some to Chayyei Olam (Everlasting Life), and some to reproaches (shames) and Dera’on Olam (Everlasting Contempt, Abhorrence, Aversion, i.e., Everlasting Gehinnom.[T.N. Onesh Olam is here made more fearsome in light of the prevalent neglect of Scripture in favor of non-Biblical studies])." (Dan 12:2 OJB)
"And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt." (Dan 12:2 RSV)
"Many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt." (Dan 12:2 WEB)
"And the multitude of those sleeping in the dust of the ground do awake, some to life age-during, and some to reproaches--to abhorrence age-during." (Dan 12:2 YLT)
I think I understand what happened. I believe you accidentally picked the wrong Hebrew word, saw what you perceived was an error on my part, and ran with it. No problem.
>>>It’s both the first and the second, described in short succession, as they are closely related events.<<<
Where does it say that?
>>>Again, a compound, less detailed description of the entire sequence of events. You seem to be under the impression that if God didn’t describe the entire sequence in exact detail in every passage, we should assume His other more detailed descriptions can just be dispensed with, but that is an unreasonable position.<<<
As is your "rapture of the church" notion.
>>>You are perfectly able to reconcile them, though, if you cared to.<<<
If I say I cannot reconcile them with a futurist position, then I cannot, whether I care to, or not. I do not discard verses because I don't happen to like them.
Philip
“We don’t know that. We only know certain individuals in the generation of Paul were to be resurrected.”
Yes, we do know that. You don’t want to admit it, but it’s right there in the Bible. The dead and living in Christ are all raised at the first resurrection, so that doesn’t leave any others. Unless you want to propose some half-dead, half-living category of zombie Christians, you are out of luck on this point, as far as Scripture is concerned.
“Your assumption that it will occur in the future is simply that: an assumption.”
It’s the only reasonable assumption, as we can still see living Christians around us (or dig up dead ones, if you want to prove it further).
“How about these?”
Yes, there are a few instances translated differently, but they are a tiny minority, out of those hundreds of verses translated as “these”.
“I examined about half of the 441 verses where I found that Hebrew word, and not once did it mean “all,” or “everyone,” or “complete,” or anything that would imply what you claim.”
I’m not claiming it means that. I’m claiming it means these, or those. It is a word specifying a group more than denoting the quantity of that group.
“Perhaps you could show us the passages you are referring to.”
I posted you the link, they are all listed there.
“I think I understand what happened. I believe you accidentally picked the wrong Hebrew word, saw what you perceived was an error on my part, and ran with it. No problem.”
It’s not the wrong word. Check it yourself in the interlinear text, the word translated as “some” or “many” is el-leh:
http://biblehub.com/interlinear/daniel/12-2.htm
You can find more on the word’s meaning here:
http://biblehub.com/hebrew/428.htm
Where you will learn that, in the NASB at least, it is translated as “these” 627 out of 736 instances, while it is only translates as “some” in 4 out of 736 instances.
“Where does it say that?”
It’s the obvious interpretation, if you are not trying to make the different verses describing the same events contradict each other.
“As is your “rapture of the church” notion.”
How is that my notion? I believe in Christ’s second coming, and the resurrection of the saints, as described in the Bible.
“I do not discard verses because I don’t happen to like them.”
Yeah, sure you don’t.