Replies

“Where did he promise that, and what was the context? Recall that Christ speaks of a “first” resurrection, but only for select individuals:”

Sorry, you’re out of luck there. The very same event was described in more detail in 1 Corinthians 15:

“50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.”

So we (the church) shall all be changed at the last trump, which corresponds only with the first resurrection. This is further confirmed in 1 Thessalonians 4:

“13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.”

Again, the dead in Christ (dead Christians), and the living Christians will all be transformed at the coming of Christ, which corresponds to the first resurrection described in Revelation. That covers all the bases, there are no Christians left.

“Putting it all together, each resurrection occurred/will occur exactly as prophesied in the old testament (Daniel) and the new (the Gospels) where both the just and unjust are resurrected in each case, some to eternal life and some to damnation.”

You are incorrect on this point as well. Every description of the first resurrection is limited only to the righteous (which means only those saved by Christ, since we have no righteousness to claim from ourselves). The nature of the two resurrections is clearly confirmed in Luke 14:14:

“14 And thou shalt be blessed; for they cannot recompense thee: for thou shalt be recompensed at the resurrection of the just.”

Here we see first resurrection clearly specified as only a resurrection of the just, and also in John 5:28-29:

“28 Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice 29 and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment.”

Christ describes two separate events, a resurrection of life (the first resurrection) and a resurrection of judgement (the second resurrection). Also, we have a similar statement in Acts 24:14 :

“15 And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.”

This can only refer to two separate events, as we know there are two separate resurrections, as Christ already described, and would later be described in Revelation. We also have it even more clearly explained by Paul in

“Jesus never made such as promise. To the contrary, he said he came to send a sword:”

That was what he came to bring in his first advent, not the second. Here is what He is promised to bring when He returns, from Isaiah 2:4 :

“And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.”

So, the existence of war demonstrates that Christ has not yet returned, despite your assertions to the contrary.

“Even after Satan was bound (at the first resurrection) he retained most of his powers.”

Satan was not bound, because the first resurrection hasn’t happened yet, so the rest of your argument here is meaningless.

“He did, to Jerusalem and outlying cities. And he will, again, to Satan and his minions.”

Slow down there. The judgement of the nations is intricately linked to Christ’s return. You cannot claim his return and the first resurrection happened without it, or satisfy this prophecy by substituting the judgement of Jerusalem. The nations haven’t been judged, Christ’s enemies are not in the lake of fire, so Christ hasn’t returned, it is plain as day.

“Maybe the only ones that were on hand to witness the resurrection were either killed or resurrected.”

The prophecies state all eyes will see, and if all were killed or resurrected, the earth would be empty. Clearly your interpretation is wrong.

“Of course, even if witnesses were present, what would they see, if anything?”

Christ coming in his glory, with his heavenly army, as the Bible tell us.

“Why not? From what I understand there were no eyewitness documents, except for Josephus, and maybe Tacitus; nor was anything written about the event for many decades afterward, from about AD70 to 150: better known as “The Silent Era.””

So, what is this, an argument from absence? There is no record among any Christians of that era that these events happened. The logical conclusion is that the event you are proposing didn’t happen, not that they just didn’t know about it, or bother to write about it. If you want to prove it happened, the onus is on you to show the documentation, otherwise there is no evidence for your assertion.

“There were, however, many strange events recorded by Josephus and Tacitus, both of which wrote about a mysterious “army” in the clouds.”

It’s inconceivable that a Jew who rejected Christ would be only witness provided to us of Christ’s return. Besides, the event he describe does not correspond to Christ’s return, because, first of all, Christ is absent, and also, the heavenly trumpet is absent, the resurrection of the dead is absent, and the judgement against the nations is absent. One of out five is bad when picking lotto numbers, but even worse when claiming a fulfillment of prophecy.

“Maybe most of the new Testament prophecies were only for the early church. Jesus said he was sent only to the lost sheep of the House of Israel; so the early Christian Gentiles may have not been privy to the prophecies.”

This might make sense if Jewish Christians just all died out, but they never did, so there still would have been witnesses, even if Christ only made a special appearance for Israel, as preposterous as that idea is. I could go into why it’s so preposterous, but I really see no point in bothering.

“Note that there are no Gentile servants mentioned in the Revelation.”

Hmm, maybe because when we take on Christ, we are grafted in as heirs to the promise, and regarded by God as Israelites? Might that not be more likely than that none of the promises given to the entire church throughout the New Testament apply to gentile believers?

So we (the church) shall all be changed at the last trump, which corresponds only with the first resurrection. This is further confirmed in 1 Thessalonians 4:

Hope you don` mind if I butt in here a little, but When Paul refers to ( Christ, the first fruits )I believe Jesus
led the first fruits in the resurrection, the first fruits being the 144000 referred to in revelation.

Rev 14
3 No one could learn the song except the 144,000 who had been redeemed from the earth.

4 These are those who did not defile themselves with women, for they remained virgins. They follow the Lamb wherever he goes. They were purchased from among mankind and offered as firstfruits to God and the Lamb.

5 No lie was found in their mouths; they are blameless.

Note, it said first fruits just as Paul did.

Romans ch 8
And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

We can see from the above that Paul knew there were other people who had already been resurrected (Glorified)

John 12
23And Jesus answered them, saying, The hour is come, that the Son of man should be glorified.

Hosea 6
2After two days will he revive us: in the third day he will raise us up, and we shall live in his sight.

There were no Christians in the first resurrection they were Gods chosen from the old testament and were conformed to the image of Jesus.

29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

All of the verses pointed out here convinces me that Jesus did not go alone but took the 144000 with him.

Mathew 27
51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;

52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,

53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

Notice, it says after his resurrection, not at his death.

>>>Again, the dead in Christ (dead Christians), and the living Christians will all be transformed at the coming of Christ, which corresponds to the first resurrection described in Revelation. That covers all the bases, there are no Christians left.<<<

Revelation 20:4 identified those of the first resurrection:

1) And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them:

2) I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands

Which category do you fall into? I personally do not fall into either. When I read that first sentence, I always think of the disciples who Jesus promised would sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes; and of course I think of the first century martyrs of Christ when I read the second sentence. I have met some very fine people in my life, but none would fit either of those categories, nor do I.

Let's revisit Paul's statements:

"Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality." (1Cor 15:51-55 KJV)

I agree that is the first resurrection, as is this one:

"For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words." (1Th 4:16-18 KJV)

One thing I have noticed in "Paul's" resurrections is his use of the word "we," as if he expected to be alive at the first resurrection. All the apostles thought the first resurrection was imminent, with good reason. Jesus told them it would occur in their generation.

How about this resurrection from Daniel?

"And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt." (Dan 12:1-2 KJV)

That is obviously a partial resurrection since it reads "many" instead of all. It also seems to occur during the great tribulation. But note that both believers and unbelievers are resurrected. Is that also the first resurrection?

This is a resurrection passage from Jesus:

"Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation." (Jn 5:28-29 KJV)

That is a complete resurrection, since Jesus used the words "all" instead of "many." But, like the resurrection in Daniel, both good and bad are resurrected. Is that also the first resurrection? Jesus didn't mention the tribulation, as Daniel did.

If those last two are not the first resurrection, but the second; then who are the good people who are resurrected, if all Christians were taken away in the first resurrection?

Then there is this, which I have always assumed to be the coming of Christ associated with the first resurrection:

"For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works. Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom." (Mt 16:27-28 KJV)

I hope you can see why I cannot reconcile those resurrections with the futurist interpretation of the resurrection.

Philip

>>>Here we see first resurrection clearly specified as only a resurrection of the just, and also in John 5:28-29: <<<

>>>“28 Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice 29 and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment.”<<<

>>>Christ describes two separate events, a resurrection of life (the first resurrection) and a resurrection of judgement (the second resurrection). <<<

Where is the 1000+ year separation of those resurrections? I don't see it. According to Christ, they all come out of their tombs in the same hour.

>>>Also, we have a similar statement in Acts 24:14 :<<<

>>>“15 And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.”<<<

>>>This can only refer to two separate events, as we know there are two separate resurrections, <<<

No WE don't. LOL! That verse is similar to John 5:28-29, Daniel 12:1-2 and Matt 16:27-28. In both the first and second resurrection, both good and bad are resurrected. Recall the parable of the sheep and the goats:

"When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: . . . Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:" (Mt 25:31-41 KJV)

There is no way that is describing two separate events.

Philip