Posted on 04/16/2014 5:37:55 AM PDT by Salvation
Featured Term (selected at random:
ROSMINIANISM
A system of philosophy formulated by Antonio Rosmini-Serbati (1797-1855), founder of the Institute of Charity. Encouraged by Popes Pius VII, Gregory XVI, and Pius IX, he undertook a renewal of Italian philosophy, ostensibly following St. Thomas Aquinas. But the influence of Descartes, Kant, and Hegel shifted his thinking. He came to hold that the human mind is born with the idea of "being." In time it analyzes this basic idea to discover in it many other ideas, which are identical with those in the mind of God. Rosmini also taught that reason can explain the Trinity and that original sin is only a physical infection of the body. After his death forty of his propositions were condemned by Pope Leo XIII in 1887 and 1888.
All items in this dictionary are from Fr. John Hardon's Modern Catholic Dictionary, © Eternal Life. Used with permission.
It's TOO good!
You can keep your added, unnecessary stuff.
I don't see that. "Pray to" is as legit as "pray for," grammatically speaking. What's your point?
Strawman Fallacy #1 - It is known that Scripture does not instruct us to pray to each other.
We know you know the Scripture doesn't teach praying to deceased believers, and we aren't saying you teach that. So it's hardly a strawman. This is more of a standard rhetorical device used often in these debates to highlight the fact that the RC is acting outside of Scriptural authority on this matter. To pick at the argument structurally is to miss, or avoid, the main point.
As for free will, this is an area fraught with definitional difficulty. There is no such thing as "free will" in the absolute sense. Every sentient being that makes choices does so on the basis of their nature. Even God. God is not "free" to choose evil. It makes no sense to even speak that way.
Likewise, fallen man is no more free than God to choose against his own nature. But man's nature, after the fall, is sinful, 24/7. So man chooses as a free moral agent, in that the impulse does come from within; it is not imposed by outside forces, and so is free in that sense. But until remediated by the work of the Holy Spirit in regeneration, those choices are always wrong, except by intervention of the plan of God.
This is an area rich with Scriptural source material, but I am working on another project at the moment. Hope you don't mind me putting in my two cents here.
Peace,
SR
Yeah. I saw you posted that the other day. It’s a typical fundamentalist argument that rejects that Heaven resides outside of space and time.
The Saints in Heaven are fully alive in Christ. More alive than you and I will be until our deaths where hopefully we will join then.
It's a misconception to think that The Church would not grow and mature in its understanding of Divine Revelation. The expectation is not that the Church look identical to the nascent Church. Understanding changes. Essence does not.
The point is that the phrase 'pray to' is not used in the correct context. Particularly when it comes to Roman Catholic teaching. We pray to God. We ask Mary and The Saints to pray for us. Therein lies the distinction.
As a result it becomes more than a rhetorical device and becomes a matter with serious theological implications. Unfortunately we have issues as to where authority emanates. The protestant view amputates half of authority when it rejects Sacred Tradition. As for free will and total depravity these are complex subjects so I defer to The Church which says:
CCC 405 Although it is proper to each individual, original sin does not have the character of a personal fault in any of Adam's descendants. It is a deprivation of original holiness and justice, but human nature has not been totally corrupted: it is wounded in the natural powers proper to it, subject to ignorance, suffering and the dominion of death, and inclined to sin - an inclination to evil that is called "concupiscence". Baptism, by imparting the life of Christ's grace, erases original sin and turns a man back towards God, but the consequences for nature, weakened and inclined to evil, persist in man and summon him to spiritual battle.
As a result Christ's death and passion redeemed us but it still becomes necessary for us to work out our salvation.
Happy for your input. Look forward to hearing from you in the future. Peace be with you!
The CCC is NOT Scripture.
Not one I've ever seen in my 35+ years of being a Christian.
It must be a typical fallacy purported by Catholics to be something that Protestants believe.
No, it's rationalization by Catholics to use to explain away how the church changes except that it doesn't.
Maturing my .... foot.
It's been changed and anyone who can read can see that.
You now read the Bible for what is not mentioned in it? We don’t even know if Peter was a bishop of Rome at the time, and the Council is in Jerusalem.
Nonsense. There are prayers by the score that can be found with a very basic google search that shows that Catholics do pray to the saints asking THEM FOR things.
As an example, here the prayer is to Mary asking her FOR things. By one of your popes no less.
Prayer of Pope Pius XII In Honor of the Immaculate Conception
http://catholicism.about.com/od/tothevirginmary/qt/Honor_Immacula.htm Prayer of Pope Pius XII Enraptured by the splendor of your heavenly beauty, and impelled by the anxieties of the world, we cast ourselves into your arms, O Immaculate Mother of Jesus and our Mother, Mary, confident of finding in your most loving heart appeasement of our ardent desires, and a safe harbor from the tempests which beset us on every side.
Though degraded by our faults and overwhelmed by infinite misery, we admire and praise the peerless richness of sublime gifts with which God has filled you, above every other mere creature, from the first moment of your conception until the day on which, after your assumption into heaven, He crowned you Queen of the Universe. O crystal fountain of faith, bathe our minds with the eternal truths! O fragrant Lily of all holiness, captivate our hearts with your heavenly perfume! O Conqueress of evil and death, inspire in us a deep horror of sin, which makes the soul detestable to God and a slave of hell!
O well-beloved of God, hear the ardent cry which rises up from every heart. Bend tenderly over our aching wounds. Convert the wicked, dry the tears of the afflicted and oppressed, comfort the poor and humble, quench hatreds, sweeten harshness, safeguard the flower of purity in youth, protect the holy Church, make all men feel the attraction of Christian goodness. In your name, resounding harmoniously in heaven, may they recognize that they are brothers, and that the nations are members of one family, upon which may there shine forth the sun of a universal and sincere peace.
Receive, O most sweet Mother, our humble supplications, and above all obtain for us that, one day, happy with you, we may repeat before your throne that hymn which today is sung on earth around your altars: You are all-beautiful, O Mary! You are the glory, you are the joy, you are the honor of our people! Amen.
Asking Mary to do things for people being underlined.
That is not only prayer TO Mary FOR things, but it is also worship of Mary, which is idolatry. It's reprehensible and an abomination giving a created being the glory and honor due to the Father Himself.
NO! Not more alive than the saints in heaven. As alive as the saints in heaven and we WILL join them some day.
And Elsie and I, as believers, are also saints who NOW are seated with Christ in the heavenly places. Even though our bodies are still here oh earth, in the spirit, we are already in heaven, our salvation being secure there.
Ephesians 2:4-10 But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved—and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.
No they did not because St. Paul a few years later insists on literally "discerning the body of Christ" or else be condemned; in John 6 Jesus insists on the same: "my flesh is food indeed".
Read the Bible every once in a while, and honestly, if you want your musings be taken seriously.
Here's what Jesus said in John 6:26-40:
Right, but then He went on to elaborate that "I am the bread of life" is to be taken literally, and that His flesh is to be eaten as bread "indeed".
Read the Bible every once in a while as a narrative, from the beginning of each episode through to the end, rather than picking parts you like and ignoring the parts you don't. Catholics do. You can do it, too.
do we believe Jesus?
Or do we instead pick a verse or two and make our own religion out of them?
... adds all kinds of rituals
Which of the Holy Sacraments of the Church, do you think, is not evidenced in the New Testament?
It's just a manner of speaking.
"Praying to the saints" is simply shorthand for "asking the saints to pray to God for us." The fact that non-Catholics are confused by the terminology is understandable and certainly forgiveable.
Praying to the Saints -- Catholic Answers
Let's Pray to the Saints -- Catholic Answers radio program
I should get a quarter each time I correct this Protestant mistranslation.
το πνευμα εστιν το ζωοποιουν η σαρξ ουκ ωφελει ουδεν τα ρηματα α εγω λαλω υμιν πνευμα εστιν και ζωη εστιν (Byzantine/Majority Text 2000, Textus Receptus 1550/1894)το πνευμα εστιν το ζωοποιουν η σαρξ ουκ ωφελει ουδεν τα ρηματα α εγω λελαληκα υμιν πνευμα εστιν και ζωη εστιν (Westcott/Hort, Tischendorf 8th Ed.)
the spirit it is that is giving life; the flesh doth not profit anything; the sayings that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life; (Young's Literal Translation)
I italicized the mistranslated part. There are variations in the tense of the verb "λαλω" (speak), hence I posted both. Would you mind telling us what translation of the Bible you use so that we can avoid it?
That the body does not profit from Eucharist, which feeds our spirit instead, we all agree. Starting with St. Paul who said "have you not houses to eat and to drink in?" (1 Cor. 11:22).
I don't give a d-mn what they desired, nor should you. If they succeeded in their desire, the end product wouldn't be contradicting the Holy Scripture at every turn. Their translations would not carry the meaning opposite to what the scripture said (see my previous post). They would not, in arguments, pick a verse they like and then skip Jesus' commentary on that very verse (like you did in your previous post). They would at least agree between themselves on something more than opposition to the Church. There are Protestant people who are honest, and admit that on the issue such as the Eucharist and the role of works in salvation it is them who bypass or ignore or explain away the Scripture. But as a movement it is all charlatanism.
Of course. In fact, we venerate bodies of some saints that are on display as relics. The bodies of the saints are with us, except Mary the Mother of God, -- because her body is in Heaven. You did not know that?
Why do you guys argue with such zeal out of ignorance?
Yes, I was confused. I was making the assumption that the text had some bearing on the Eucharist. I apologize.
So what does repeated sacrifice of goats and bulls have to do with the Holy Mass?
The Catholic Church gave you the Holy Scripture (making the Old Testament accessible and writing, editing and canonizing 1 Century books that you know as the New Testament), which you consider authority.
We started when Sts Peter and Andrew were called. That is our authority.
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