Posted on 12/13/2013 7:47:42 AM PST by GonzoII
That’s right, we don’t pray to dead people.
But we do ask those alive in Christ to pray for us. Yes, I will go down that road holding firm that Christ died and rose from the dead and sits at the right hand of the Father.
Deny it all to whatever end that leads you.
Checked it out and can confirm that Mary and the angels and saints are respected, but they’re not treated like God.
Anything else?
And round and round we go.
So you pray to dead people that someone or some institution labeled a "saint."
When in doubt, consult the Book.
Luke 16: 24 - 26
"And he called out, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am in anguish in this flame.’ But Abraham said, ‘Child, remember that you in your lifetime received your good things, and Lazarus in like manner bad things; but now he is comforted here, and you are in anguish. And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, in order that those who would pass from here to you may not be able, and none may cross from there to us.’
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Question: "What does the Bible say about praying for the dead?"
They’re treated like God because they are prayed to, asked for things that only God can do for them, and given names that belong to God.
If anyone can’t see that that is treating them like they treat God, the delusion and deception is far greater in their souls than they have any clue about.
“I think I can state it more clearly.”
Sigh.
Well, I tried.
Bye, now.
You tried but you failed, because you were trying to sustain the premise that the Roman Catholic Church provides the only true answers. But, in reality we find everything needed within Scripture. The bogus reference in the apocrypha is not a valid reference because of its very nature. Parsing of words does not present a cogent argument, but instead is exactly how we see the distortion of God's word to try and establish an extra-Biblical position.
Once again, I will provide you with scripture to sustain my premise. Your traditions do not stand up to the measure of God's word. The very idea of pleading or asking for special favors from dead people is the antithesis of Jesus' life and purpose. God came down from heaven to live a perfect life which cannot happen with us mortals. While He was here, He promised that when he was gone, he would provide his Holy Spirit to live within us, Individually and collectively.
John 14: ... 15 “If you love me, keep my commands. 16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever— 17 the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be[c] in you. 18 I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. 19 Before long, the world will not see me anymore, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live. 20 On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you. ...
... 25 “All this I have spoken while still with you. 26 But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you. 27 Peace I leave with you; my peace I give you. I do not give to you as the world gives. Do not let your hearts be troubled and do not be afraid. ...
... Hebrews 9: 11 But when Christ came as high priest of the good things that are now already here,[a] he went through the greater and more perfect tabernacle that is not made with human hands, that is to say, is not a part of this creation. 12 He did not enter by means of the blood of goats and calves; but he entered the Most Holy Place once for all by his own blood, thus obtaining[b] eternal redemption. 13 The blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a heifer sprinkled on those who are ceremonially unclean sanctify them so that they are outwardly clean. 14 How much more, then, will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself unblemished to God, cleanse our consciences from acts that lead to death, so that we may serve the living God!
15 For this reason Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance—now that he has died as a ransom to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant. ...
...10: 19 Therefore, brothers and sisters, since we have confidence to enter the Most Holy Place by the blood of Jesus, 20 by a new and living way opened for us through the curtain, that is, his body, 21 and since we have a great priest over the house of God, 22 let us draw near to God with a sincere heart and with the full assurance that faith brings, having our hearts sprinkled to cleanse us from a guilty conscience and having our bodies washed with pure water. 23 Let us hold unswervingly to the hope we profess, for he who promised is faithful.
This can't be that difficult! "Ask them for their prayers" DO NOT EQUAL "pray to them." See?
But again, to the pagan they are dead people and that's the point you embrace, meaning your viewpoint is no different from the pagan. I have to use that filter whenever I read your posts.
They are NOT prayed TO.
We ask them FOR their prayers as they are alive in Christ.
We call them by their given names, not any that "belong to God."
Everything you've said is FALSE WITNESS against Christians. SHAME ON YOU!
Those who follow Jesus Christ instead of John Calvin don't have this hatred towards others.
Which in this case are the same as the Eastern Orthodox Christian Church and the Oriental Orthodox Christian Churches. In other words, it's the teaching of every ancient Christian Church with a direct lineage to the Apostles themselves and is consistent with the teachings handed down from the Saints.
My statement is factual, based on the testimony of scores of catholics in this forum.
>> “We ask them FOR their prayers as they are alive in Christ.” <<
.
Sublime arrogance!
You have no way of knowing who is “alive in Christ.”
By scripture, the odds are massively against you, for “few there be that find it.”
“You tried but you failed”
I tried to offer you the truth, and failed.
The point I was trying to make is grounded in God’s word, and stands undisturbed.
“You have no way of knowing who is “alive in Christ.””
Sorry, but that’s not a factual statement.
True, there are many souls of whom nothing is known, but there are other souls of whom much is known.
It is a perfectly factual statement.
For example, some adored Paul Crouch, while others assert that he’ll burn for eternity.
These perceptions are personal in nature.
“It is a perfectly factual statement.”
It is sad that a saint has never responded to a prayer of yours in person.
Perhaps you should count the number of people who have had that experience.
There is a rare disorder that renders a person unable to feel pain. If most people had it, many of them would scoff at people who had felt pain.
“...because you were trying to sustain the premise that the Roman Catholic Church provides the only true answers.”
Just as an afterthought, and because I do not like to be misrepresented, I was sustaining nothing of the kind.
I don’t know why you said that. Not by the wildest stretch of imagination could anything I ever wrote be twisted into anything resembling that.
That shows pretty clearly that you are not arguing against what I say, or what the Catholic Church teaches, but against some imaginary construct of your own.
Baloney. The only false witness is claiming to know what's in someone's heart by making spurious accusations against them for *hatred*.
I posted the documentation in post 115 to back up my assertions.
Those are the facts.
Mary is given names that rightly belong to the Godhead.
She is petitioned for things and asked to answer them.
She is treated like God and anyone who refuses to see the facts when they are presented, is deluded beyond hope.
Lots of mushmouth mumbojumbo, but it is not given to men to discern the state of the souls of others.
Never will you know who is a saint.
If you are praying to the deceased, there is a 90% or larger chance that you are praying to the condemned.
And you have no way of knowing who is not. THAT'S the true arrogance.
We are comfortable with God being the judge and are eternally thankful that it isn't you.
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