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To: HarleyD

I think maybe I wasn’t clear on the point I was trying to make. My point was this, for faith or love to exist, a choice must be available. For instance, I deeply appreciate my wife because she makes choices daily to benefit me and not herself. This is love. If she were a robot instead, she might well do lots of things for me, and benefit me greatly, but she could not agape love me, ever, since she would have no option to do anything besides obey me.

So for God to create man in his image, and for us to be able to give and receive love, He needed to give us a choice. He was certainly aware that many people would make bad choices, and that many people would choose him. However he wanted to reveal himself as the God of love, and wanted us to be able to give and receive love, so he made a choice to create us with a free will. At the same time he knew we’d blow it, by and large, so he made a plan for that too.

So basically your question seems to miss the point. I believe God gave us a choice because he wanted things like love and faith to be possible. So definitely he wanted to give them a choice. If you want to challenge the point, tell me how faith and love can exist without the ability to choose. If you agree that faith and love require choice, then I think it is clear why we have a choice, because God wanted a world where he could demonstrate love, and we could experience it too. So rather than debate God’s intention for the tree, let’s debate if love can exist without choice. If you come to the conclusion it can’t, as I have, then I expect you won’t be asking the question you did anymore.


127 posted on 02/08/2013 4:12:16 AM PST by krghou
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To: krghou
I believe God gave us a choice because he wanted things like love and faith to be possible. So definitely he wanted to give them a choice.

Thank you for your response. I believe your point was very clear; however, this isn't the teaching of traditional Protestantism. This is Catholicism. Please note this from Our Catholic Faith. Of course, perhaps you are Catholic in which case then the issue isn't an issue at all. :O)

If you want to challenge the point, tell me how faith and love can exist without the ability to choose.

Please note my rhetorical question: Was it God's intention to show to Adam what he would choose if given a choice? I am not saying Adam (and Eve) didn't have a choice. What I am saying is that Eve decision was based upon a deception-so she made the wrong choice. Adam's decision, apart from the influence of God, was motivated by Eve. And so it goes; always motivated by something other than God.

So rather than debate God’s intention for the tree, let’s debate if love can exist without choice.

Rather interesting question and quite frankly I'm tired of talking about horticulture. I would say that since God doesn't make "choices" (He shows no partiality) and God is love, then I would say yes love can exist without choice. And as noted in 1 John:

The only reason we love is because of God, which means that God must put love into our hearts to love Him back and to love others. So then that begs the question on how we can make a choice if we have no love for the Father? We must have love in order to make a choice.

132 posted on 02/08/2013 6:37:21 AM PST by HarleyD
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