You wrote:
“It is the Bible which says ALL have sinned and come short of the glory of God. He does not exclude infants. I know this, because I read my Bible. Even though the RC Church didn’t want low lifes such as myself to, for a good period of time.”
Oh, and there we go. I already know what the Bible says. I was asking you about what you wrote, not what Paul wrote.
Try and answer these questions:
1) Does baptism wash away sins, yes or no?
2) Do babies commit sins (not just inherit the stain of Original Sin), yes or no?
3) You implied everyone sins, but now you’re contradicting yourself and saying babies don’t sin. Which is it? Were you wrong the first time or now?
“Ok, so you don’t know. You have read your own history and confessions and bulls and whatnot and have blocked it out. Ok. Mea culpa. You are ignorant of the official RC church, its officials, its councils, etc., forbidding and persecuting to the point of killing those who dared to distribute Bibles in the common language to the regular people. How sad.”
Actually I am not ignorant about “the official RC church, its officials, its councils, etc.,” It has been shown that you are the ignorant one. Also, the Church never killed anyone - EVER - for anything let alone for distributing “Bibles in the common language to the regular people.” Protestant anti-Catholics make stuff up out of thin air. Hence, you have no evidence, no cases, no examples, none at all.
“And you disown the Council of Toulouse.”
I don’t “disown” it at all. I just know what it is and what it is not. Toulouse is not the Church. I realize most Protestant anti-Catholics simply don’t understand that - but a regional council does not represent the Church. It only represents the needs of Catholics in that region.
“Oh, sure, it was an official Roman Catholic body, but, since it doesn’t fit the agenda, you drop it.”
No, you’re trying to get it to fit YOUR AGENDA. Again, a regional council does not represent the WHOLE CHURCH. Think about it, would you mistake California for the whole nation? I doubt it.
“I could bring up plenty more, but why bother?”
No, you can’t bring up plenty more - except plenty more non-evidence, things that do NOT prove your point whatsoever. That’s the whole point.
“You will dismiss any truth that makes you uncomfortable.”
First of all, none of this makes me uncomfortable - its hundreds of years ago and the context explains everything. I never dismiss any truth.
“No. I confess that the Bride has no spot or wrinkle. Why? Because she does not sin? No, because she had been washed in the blood of the lamb. She is not sinless because she is perfect. She is sinless because He is perfect. Makes all the difference in the world.”
And that is EXACTLY WHAT WE BELIEVE. The Church is holy because of Christ. That’s why the Church doesn’t sin. The Church comes from Christ. You can’t have it both ways. The Church cannot be spotless because of Christ yet spotted with sin. We believe that Christ’s Church is holy because of His grace and remains unspotted even though the Church is a hospital for sinners, filled with sinners. Our belief is perfectly consistent - whereas yours is contradictory. Our belief is that Christ’s grace is so powerful it preserves the Church from sin. Yours is contradictory and logically makes a lie of Christ’s grace.
“The martyrs are those who faithfully proclaimed the Word and suffered and/or were put to death for it.”
Heretics and schismatics do not “faithfully” proclaim the Word. They are heretics and schismatics. Also, you are confusing “confessors” with “martyrs”. Confessors are those who suffer, but do not die. Martyrs die. They are not the same thing.
“Wycliffe suffered.”
He suffered for his heresy. He was never a martyr. If he had been right - and he wasn’t even according to Protestants because of his heresies like dominion - he could only have been a confessor, never a martyr. http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04215a.htm
“Tyndale suffered and died.”
For heresy. Not a martyr.
“The Huguenots of France,”
Heresy, schism, rebellion. Not martyrs.
“Walter Mill of Scotland,”
Heretic and vow breaker. Not a martyr.
“the two Margarets of Scotland, drowned in the sea!”
Margaret MacLachlan and Margaret Wilson? Both were killed by Protestants (Episcopalians) in 1685. Protestants killed other Protestants.
“And countless others, many listed and recorded and remembered in Foxe’s AND other histories - and no amount of putting your fingers in your ears and saying “la, la, la” is going to change that.”
So far you have not listed a single bona fide martyr.
“Why defend evil?”
I never have. Why do you defend heresy and schism?
“Promote what is good and right.”
I always do.
“God was not pleased with this wickedness.”
What wickedness? Was He more displeased when Protestant heretics and schismatics put to death fellow heretics and schismatics (the two Margarets) or when Catholics put to death heretics and schismatics?
“I don’t hold you personally responsible for the evil.”
What evil?
“But I do hold you responsible for denying and/or defending it.”
I do not deny or defend evil. I also don’t over react and call acts that society generally approved of hundreds of years ago evil or wicked hundreds of years after the fact. I also believe those acts should be put into their proper context. We can say slavery is evil and wicked. Does that mean that Washington, and Jefferson, and the other founding fathers really deserve to be labelled as evil and wicked men?
As I think your responses over, Vladimir, I think I see the crux of the issue. You don’t think the church (and you think the RC church is the only true church) can sin. Therefore, when confronted with instances of horrible sin by the church, you have to deny, or belittle, or justify it, rather than admitting that it erred.
There are many ways to illustrate the fact that the church can and does sin. Not to put too fine a point on it; the church is made of individuals, of course. Yet Jesus says the church sins, and the most pithy example I can think of is in Revelation 2:
“To the angel of the church of Ephesus write,
‘These things says He who holds the seven stars in His right hand, who walks in the midst of the seven golden lampstands: “I know your works, your labor, your patience, and that you cannot bear those who are evil. And you have tested those who say they are apostles and are not, and have found them liars; and you have persevered and have patience, and have labored for My name’s sake and have not become weary. Nevertheless I have this against you, that you have left your first love. Remember therefore from where you have fallen; repent and do the first works, or else I will come to you quickly and remove your lampstand from its place—unless you repent. But this you have, that you hate the deeds of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate.
“He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes I will give to eat from the tree of life, which is in the midst of the Paradise of God.”’
“And to the angel of the church in Smyrna write,
‘These things says the First and the Last, who was dead, and came to life: “I know your works, tribulation, and poverty (but you are rich); and I know the blasphemy of those who say they are Jews and are not, but are a synagogue of Satan. Do not fear any of those things which you are about to suffer. Indeed, the devil is about to throw some of you into prison, that you may be tested, and you will have tribulation ten days. Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life.
“He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. He who overcomes shall not be hurt by the second death.”’
“And to the angel of the church in Pergamos write,
‘These things says He who has the sharp two-edged sword: “I know your works, and where you dwell, where Satan’s throne is. And you hold fast to My name, and did not deny My faith even in the days in which Antipas was My faithful martyr, who was killed among you, where Satan dwells. But I have a few things against you, because you have there those who hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balak to put a stumbling block before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed to idols, and to commit sexual immorality. 1Thus you also have those who hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitans, which thing I hate. Repent, or else I will come to you quickly and will fight against them with the sword of My mouth.”
I could go on, seven churches are addressed in all, but the point is, churches, real churches so identified by Jesus, do indeed sin. When they do, they must repent, not deny it.
Were our founding fathers evil for supporting/indulging in slavery? Yes. Does that mean all they were was evil? No, but that part of their thoughts and actions was evil. Why deny it? Who does that help? Is God fooled?
Was the RC church sinning when it, officially (I don’t speak of individual acts by un-sanctioned Catholics, that would not be fair) - but by its popes, officebearers, edicts, bulls, councils, and delegated powers, including instructed civil authorities - persecuted, tortured and murdered people for translating and distributing Bibles, or preaching from the same? Yes, it was. The solution is to repent (as a church), not deny it.
I am aware of the fact that Protestants have killed Protestants, too, for perceived errors in doctrine. I deny it and abhor and and call it a sin. I would never defend it.