Skip to comments.Mormons and Demons [Lds believe Lucifer REALLY is Jesus' -- and their -- literal 'brother']
Posted on 08/02/2012 3:35:51 PM PDT by Colofornian
...Mike Huckabee...candidate for the Republican nominationwas being pressed by a reporter for the New York Times Magazine about the religion of his rival, Willard Mitt Romney, before the 2008 Iowa caucuses. The reporter prodded Huckabee with an all-important question...: Mormonismcult or religion?
...The Times noted that he asked with an innocent voice the following question: Dont Mormons believe that Jesus and the devil are brothers?
...A spokeswoman for the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints said that while Mormons believe all beings were created by God and are his spirit children, Jesus Christ was the only begotten in the flesh; the son of God; and the savior of mankind.
Theologically, the religion is almost uncategorizeable...They are best described not as polytheists but henotheists, because they seem to believe in more than one god but only worship one of them...Some of their temple-rituals hearken back to the mystery religions of the Roman empire...They reject the Trinity as firmly as they reject predestination.
...Mormons believe the church fell apart very early on, right around the end of the first century. They believe the church was reestablished by divine intervention through the prophecies and presence of Smith...
...it is drilled into them that their actions here on this earth really will affect their heavenly rewards hereafter. Speculation about what form those rewards might take is a perennial subject of mockery by critics of Mormonism. (They think theyll become gods! Theyll inherit their own planets!)...
ROMNEY CAN BE protean and pragmatic when it comes to business and politics, but when the subject is Mormonism, he really believes the stuff...He has baptized the dead by proxy, but not recently. Mitt has tithed millions of dollars to the LDS church and spent years of his life volunteering as a missionary, bishop, and stake president.
(Excerpt) Read more at spectator.org ...
Iow...the "spokesperson" for the Mormon church didn't tell the "fullness" of truth about Mormon theology.
Well, that was Huckabee in Dec 2007...Then fast-forward 25 months to late January 2010. Rexburg Idaho. Home of BYU-Idaho. An Lds "apostle," M. Russell Ballard, gives an unscripted fireside "convo" with Mormon students. See: Ballard speaks on Mormons in the media from the Rexburg Standard Journal, which covers the talk.
Ballard lets the "cat out of the bag": From the Rexburg article: "You remember Mr. (Mike) Huckabee (who was also vying to be the Republican candidate for president), who among other things said that Mormons believe that Jesus and the devil were brothers?" Ballard asked students. "Remember that? It went all over the media. "Well they are!" Ballard exclaimed to a laughing student body.
Ah, yes. When Mormons accused Huckabee of lying about this -- or worse. They were all offended. Get them behind closed doors, and they laugh about the reality of having Mormon worldviews pegged in the public square.
So, here, we have an Lds general authority conceding that -- to quote him "Well they are!" in reference to the issue of whether they cite "Jesus and the devil are brothers."
Now in case someone views that this information needs to be suppressed...not let it become aired out...or they think that we are overriding realities in our assessments of Mormonism, Elder Ballard concedes at this fireside chatm adding: "But they (the media and nonmembers) don't understand that, because they don't have the (LDS gospel) restoration. They don't understand the spiritual relationship that ... we are all sons and daughters of God, and that Lucifer was one of those and (that) he chose to use his agency in an unrighteous way."
Let's read what some Mormon leaders have had to say?
An LDS "Seventy" named Milton R. Hunter wrote: "The appointment of Jesus to be Saviour of the world was contested by one of the other sons of God. He was called Lucifer, Son of the Morning .... this spirit brother of Jesus desperately tried to become the Saviour of Mankind." MILTON R. HUNTER (First Council of 70) The Gospel Through the Ages, p. 15, 1958
Brigham Young said: Who will redeem the earth, who will go forth and make the sacrifice for the earth and all things it contains? The Eldest Son said: Here am I; and then he added, Send me. But the second one, which was Lucifer, Son of the Morning, said, Lord, here am I, send me, I will redeem every son and daughter of Adam and Eve that lives on the earth, or that ever goes on the earth. (Journal of Discourses, pp. 53-54)
As it's indicated in LDS Scripture, Book of Abraham, LDS do indeed believe that Jesus is the "elder brother" of Lucifer, and that Lucifer is also every Mormon's "elder brother."
In 1844, LDS author W.W. Phelps wrote: "And again, we exclaim, O Mormonism! No wonder that Lucifer, son of the morning, the next heir to Jesus Christ, our eldest brother, should fight so hard against his brethren; he lost the glory, the honor, power, and dominion of a God and the knowledge, spirit, authority and keys of the priesthood of the son of God!"
In 1949 this LDS Conference Report features LDS apostle Joseph F. Merrill, who says that Lucifer "is a spirit brother of ours and of our Lord Jesus Christ..." Here's the exact quote:
"Now there is another personality of which I desire to speak, ... that person is Satan, the Devil. But according to our understanding and teaching, Satan is a person with a spirit body, in form like that of all other men. He is a spirit brother of ours and of our Lord Jesus Christ, who is our Elder Brother in the spirit world. The earth was in course of development for the abode of man in mortality. A Redeemer was to be sent down and make it possible for the Father's children to return to him." (LDS Conference Report, April 1949, p. 27)
LDS "Apostle" John A. Widtsoe taught that Jesus is not only the brother of Jesus, but his "elder brother." Exact quote:
"The story of Lucifer is the most terrible example of such apostasy. ... He pitted his own plan and will against the purposes of God. He strove to gain the birthright of his Elder Brother, Jesus the Christ." (Evidences and Reconciliations, p. 209)
Tis true tis true.
But we were told his religon would never be brought up by the fans of mitt...
sadly he is still leaps and bounds better than the alternative.
Well, while henotheism does have a "there's-many-gods-but-we-worship-only-one of them" aspect to it, Mormon theology actually is: "there's-many-gods-but-we-worship-BOTH-Elohim-and-Jesus-which-makes-for-worshiping-those-we-deem-as-TWO-separate-gods"
Also, Mormon theology advocates the worship of other gods besides that...just by others (vs. themselves)...THAT is indeed polytheism...
Besides, Lds "apostle" Bruce McConkie, in his book, Mormon Doctrine, couldn't even do simple math about how many gods LDS are to worship!
Q1 How many (true) gods are worshiped in the Bible?
A One according to Jews & Christians
Q2 How many (true) gods are worshiped in the Book of Mormon?
A Two according to the Mormon definition of Heavenly Father and Jesus being two separate gods.
Q3 How many (true) gods are worshiped according to their LDS apostle's "Mormon Doctrine" 1966 book?
A Three according to the Mormon definition of Heavenly Father and Jesus and the Holy Ghost being three separate gods): "Three separate personages--the Father, Son and Holy Ghost--comprise the Godhead...To us, speaking in the proper finite sense, these three are the only gods we worship." (Mormon Doctrine, pp. 567-577, 1966 edition
* [As in asterisk...a "oh, yeah, wait a minute."]
* (I should have kept reading further down in McConkie's book). McConkie, on p. 848, only emphasizes worshiping two gods: "The Father and the Son are the objects of all true worship....No one can worship the Father without also worshiping the Son....It is proper to worship the Father, in the name of the Son, and also to worship the Son" (McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, p. 848).
** [a double asterisk as in "Oh, yeah...I should have waited until McConkie circled back around to give a devo @ BYU in 1982]
** McConkie changes his mind by 1982, when he gave that special devo @ BYU 30 years ago (March 2, 1982, "Our Relationship with the Lord.")
Essentially, McConkie wasn't happy with either his "3" god or "2" god worship. So he came up with a kind of 1 1/2-god worship to present to BYU students:
We do NOT worship the Son, and we do not worship the Holy Ghost. I know perfectly well what the scriptures say about worshipping Christ and Jehovah, but they are speaking in an entirely different sense--the sense of standing in awe and being reverentially grateful to him who has redeemed us. Worship in the true and saving sense is reserved for God the first, the Creator.
Wow! Even the word "worship" gets twisted and distorted by Mormon general authorities and the "disciples" of Mormon who follow them.
The lds-org denies that Jesus is the Creator, that everything was created BY Him.
Pray they repent of their falsehoods and see the Truth.
None of this has anything to do with whether someone is a good or bad citizen of the US and does not diminish his right as a citizen to hold elective office in this country.
This contradicts a prophesy by the apostle Paul, who highlighted that Jesus is the Ever-Present Master Church-Builder who prevails as the Strong Guardian of a Church that has never fully apostatized are:
Ephesians 3:21: to him [God] be glory in the church and in Christ Jesus throughout all generations, for ever and ever! Amen.
The apostle Paul's prophesy here is that ALL generations of the Church would (and have) given God glory, for ever and ever!
Yup...how "inspirational" it is for a POTUS candidate to come along and believe the following...essentially saying..."Yup. I adhere to the 'faith of my fathers.' Will you vote for me in November now?"
Snapshot of Joseph Smiths Slanderous Invectives vs. Christian Sects
Mormon Source[Note: Most of these are Mormon scriptures'. In fact, First three rows below are Lds 'scripture' & therefore cannot be rug-swept any more than a Jew might try to take three commandments off of the very tablets of stone Moses brought down from the mountain]
|...which of all the sects was right must join NONE of them, for they were ALL WRONG those professors were ALL CORRUPT ||Joseph Smith History vv. 18-19. Lds "scripture" Pearl of Great Price|
|...which of all the sects was right ALL their CREEDS were an ABOMINATION in his sight they teach for doctrines the commandments of MEN ||Joseph Smith History vv. 18-19. Lds "scripture" Pearl of Great Price|
|Mormon church the only Christ-sanctioned church on earth: the foundation of this [Mormon] church the ONLY true and living church on the face of the whole earth [Obvious scorched earth implication: All other churches are false and dead]||Lds scripture Doctrines & Covenants 1:30|
|Direct question asked of Joseph Smith: 'Will everybody be damned, but Mormons?" Answer from Lds "prophet" Joseph Smith: 'Yes, and a great portion of them, unless they repent, and work righteousness."||Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 119 [Not scripture but still publicly spoken by the Mormon living prophet and published by a later Mormon living prophet, Joseph Fielding Smith via a publisher owned by the Mormon church Deseret News Press, 1938]|
|In 1952 the first official proselyting plan was sent to missionaries throughout the world It included seven missionary discussions that emphasized [four topics, one of them being] THE APOSTASY and Restoration [This makes it 60 years that Mormon church missionaries, now numbering 55,000, have formally emphasized in its training & door to door saturation a priority in bashing the worldwide Christian church as apostates (100% AWOL)]||Our Heritage: A Brief History of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints p. 116, 1996|
who cares? I don’t.
Let there be peace on earth. And let it begin with me. Let there be peace on earth. The peace that was meant to be. With God as our father. Brothers all are we.
- Vince Gill, lyrics
OUR Father.From this we see that we owe our neighbor both love and reverence. We must love our neighbor because we are all brothers, and all men are sons of God, our Father: For he that loveth not his brother whom he seeth, how can he love God whom he seeth not? We owe reverence to our neighbor because he is also a child of God: Have we not all one Father? Hath not one God created us? Why then does everyone of us despise his brother?
- St. Thomas Aquinas, analyzing The Lord’s Prayer
While I am neither LDS nor a Romney fan, I don’t find the belief under discussion so bizarre that it would affect Romney’s ability to serve as president. Romney is far too liberal for my tastes, but it’s his liberalism and not his LDS beliefs that disturb me. I know quite a few Mormons who are at least as conservative as I am.
“None of this has anything to do with whether someone is a good or bad citizen of the US and does not diminish his right as a citizen to hold elective office in this country.”
Exactly! Mitt has the right to hold office - regardless of the fact he thinks he will become a god of his own planet. Regardless of his belief that as a god, he will breed with multiple goddess wives to populate his own planet. Regardless of his perversion of the nature of God and his idolatry as a mormon.
Whether I would vote for someone who believes such cultic idiocy is another story.
Some of the classic 2007 FR threads we had featured a Flying Inman poster, Fast Coyote. Fast Coyote would occasionally "don" the garb of one who was a "god in embryo" about to raise himself up by the bootstraps as a "god" and would begin posting as if he was earnest in his readiness to be/become divine.
He would humorously describe some of the details of that transition.
Well, had Fast Coyote seriously believed what he was describing on those threads, ya better believe he would have only been making himself open to such mockery.
The problem is that for the first time in the history of our nation we have a POTUS candidate who openly beliefs the "faith of his fathers" -- which teaches that they are indeed "gods-in-embryo" about to transition into full-blown godhood.
What would be openly mocked if Mike Huckabee or Hillary Clinton believed this in 2008 is "ho hummed" by supposed Christian voters who say they oppose idolatry.
As A Roman Catholic, the original Christian Religion, I feel that Mormons have done nothing to harm me. They do not force people to follow their religion and they do good things in the community for both their fellow Mormons and to those not affiliated with their religion.
Romney is also a damn sight better than Obam, so I don't care if he was a dirt worshiper, he will still get my vote, more as a vote against O’Bumbler!
Well, the Bible DOES talk about those who are faithful with small things on earth may inherit greater responsibilities later. But it in no way talks about living forever in the presence of God the Father as linked to merit badges...as if "works-righteousness" was the ticket for that. Yet THAT is what Mormon theology teaches.
Mormons think of grace as primarily future-tense due to Book of Mormon passages like 2 Nephi 25:23 and Moroni 10:32...as mentioned in a previous post...it's like some after-burner will kick in to both "save" the Mormon and lead them to perfection.
The apostle Paul destroyed that nonsense:
...the gospel, by the power of God who has saved us and called us to a holy lifeNOT because of anything WE have done BUT because of his own purpose and grace. This grace was given us in Christ Jesus before the beginning of time... (2 Tim. 1:8-9)
#1 We're saved by the character of graciousness exhibited by God as exercised in His Son, Jesus Christ; not the character of man.
#2 And to pre-empt complete boasting on man's part, 'twas done before the clocked ticked once. (That's why the apostle Paul said that if works served as man's way to God, WE could boast about how WE worked our way into God's presence see Ephesians 2:8-9)
Think of all this w/this illustration:
Parental "grace" or "favor" extended by adopted parents is "grace" extended to all they adopt, right?
But say you adopted a 12 yo boy who no matter what "pure gift" you gave to him @ his birthday or Christmas time, he would absolutely insist that he "work" for it..."pay you back" for it...and even eventually billed himself for "room and board" during his teen years to "pay you back" for that, too...
Believe me, such a 'tude exhibited by the "pay-back boy" would get old soon enough. How many times would the father say to Himself, "You know this boy can never pay back how I reached into the darkest part of the world to rescue him; yet he thinks he can 'earn' his way into sonship." At some point, this legalism is going to become "offensive" to a Gracious Father -- just like it would if your adopted son could never simply "receive" gifts from you.
Bottom line: Does the above describe a grace-filled father-son relationship?; or is that a legalistic tit-for-tat campaign to "prove" himself "worthy" as if he was a mere "house tenant" -- instead of acting like a true adopted son?
The apostle Paul also made it clear to the Galatians that they could nullify grace. Consider these three passages he wrote to them:
I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing! [My note: If we de-magnify God's grace, we set it apart...and belittle the cross of Christ, which the Mormons don't honor, anyway]
Galatians 3:1-3: 1You foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? Before your very eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed as crucified. 2I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by observing the law, or by believing what you heard? 3Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit, are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort?
Galatians 5:4: You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace. [Example of grace nullification]
The apostle Paul also told the Romans 11:5-6: 5 So too, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace. 6 And if by grace, then IT CANNOT BE BASED ON WORKS; IF IT WERE, GRACE WOULD NO LONGER BE GRACE. ***
Norm, Elz said three things in post #222 (what you're responding to here) -- the third of which is:
A MORMON president would 'authenticate' MORMONism in the eys of many; thus insuring their eventual destruction.
That has nothing to do with "religious liberty" issues...and everything to do with "spiritual bondage" issues.
Pure and simple, it's almost as if the book of Galatians was God's anticipated book specifically written for Mormons! Why? Well, not only because Mormons are our legalists of this era, but just look at these Galatians verses:
Galatians 1:6-9: 6 I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you to live in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel 7 which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let them be under Gods curse! 9 As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let them be under Gods curse!
...know that a person is NOT justified by the works of the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and NOT by the works of the law, because by the works of the law NO ONE will be justified...21 I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing! (Gal. 2:16, 21)
1 You foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? Before your very eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed as crucified. 2 I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by believing what you heard? 3 Are you so foolish? After beginning by means of the Spirit, are you now trying to finish by means of the flesh? 4 Have you experienced so much in vainif it really was in vain? 5 So again I ask, does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you by the works of the law, or by your BELIEVING what you heard? 6 So also Abraham BELIEVED God, and it was credited to him as righteousness. 7 Understand, then, that those who have FAITH are children of Abraham. 8 Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles BY FAITH, and announced the gospel in advance to Abraham: All nations will be blessed through you. 9 So those who RELY ON FAITH are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith. 10 For ALL who RELY on the works of the law are under a curse, as it is written: Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do EVERYTHING written in the Book of the Law. 11 Clearly NO ONE who RELIES on the law is justified before God, because the righteous will live BY FAITH. 12 The law is NOT based on faith; on the contrary, it says, The person who does these things will live by them. 13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: Cursed is everyone who is hung on a pole. 14 He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that BY FAITH we might RECEIVE the promise of the Spirit. (Gal. 3:1-14)
7 So you are NO LONGER a slave, but Gods child; and since you are his child, God has made you also an heir. 8 Formerly, when you did not know God, you were slaves to those who by nature are not gods...we are not children of the slave woman, but of the free woman. 1 It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery. (Gal. 4:7-8, 31, 5:1)
* 2 Nephi 25:23: ...ye are saved by grace, AFTER ALL YOU can DO." (2 Nephi 25:23)
* Helaman 12:24: "...may God grant, in his great fulness, that men might be brought unto repentance and good works, that they might be restored unto grace for grace, ACCORDING to their WORKS." (Helaman 12:24)
* Moroni 10:32: Yea, come unto Christ, and be perfected in him, and deny yourselves of all ungodliness; and IF ye shall deny yourselves of ALL ungodliness, and love God with all your might, mind and strength, THEN is his grace sufficient for you, that by his grace ye may be perfect in Christ; and if by the grace of God ye are perfect in Christ, ye can in nowise deny the power of God.
The Mormon teaching is clear above:
(1) Grace doesn't kick in for the Mormon UNTIL he's done "ALL" he can do... (2 Nephi 25:23) (All spiritually, relationally, physically, emotionally, intellectually, etc.)
(2) Grace is handed out in Mormonism tit-for-tat -- "according to works" (Helaman 12:24) This redefines the very word as a "free gift"
(3) In Mormonism, you have to FIRST deny yourself of ALL ungodliness -- not just some -- and ALSO love God with ALL your might, mind and strength -- and THEN God's grace kicks in (Moroni 10:32)
Utter hopelessness is this religious legalism of despair.
As a Christian minister, I absolutely reject the false teachings of Mormonism, a made-up, heretical religion. At the same time, I plan on voting for Mitt Romney. I’m only voting for a president, not a pastor.
Read the Parable of the Good Samaritan.
Read it carefully.
Jesus told us that those of other Faiths CAN put our own Faith to shame.
Well, the birthers may have a rather strong point in saying, "Hey, I'd settle for any ACTUAL CITIZEN running for POTUS this go-round." :)
But citizenship (beyond the Obama question) isn't normally a "rallying" when it comes to POTUS...if that was the case, Perot and Ron Paul and Donald Trump would have been all fine as POTUSES.
One key aspect of considering a POTUS candidate is discernment...A candidate vulnerable -- gullible -- to deception in what he deems to be THE MOST IMPORTANT area of his life...can readily find bleedover effects ... for example in foreign policy.
Discernment IS key when we're talking about THE leader of the free world.
...his right as a citizen to hold elective office in this country.
Well, who's contending vs. Romney's "right" to be on the GoP ballot? (I'm not)
Point 1- RELIGION: Religion IS NOT a qualification or disqualification for public office; but it's certainly one quality of voter discernment among many others...namely, voting record, present position statements & rampant inconsistency of past position statements, social issues' stances, character, viability, scandal-free past, etc. Article VI, section 3 of the Constitution is aimed at the candidate (must be of a certain age and must have resided in our country for a certain number of years) and the government so that religion does not become a disqualification to keep somebody otherwise eligible for running for public office. Article VI, section 3, is not aimed at the voter. Otherwise, voters would have to 100% disregard character, beliefs, other-dimensionly commitments, and spiritual discernment in weighing candidates.
POINT 2 - ELIGIBILITY: Newsflash!! Every person on the ballot, & even most write-in candidates, have proper "qualifications" to not be excluded from office consideration (based upon religious grounds). Of course, millions of us have the "qualifications" to be considered a potential POTUS & shouldn't be excluded outright from a ballot because of the religion we hold! Nobody has a "Religious Ineligibility" tattoo on their forehead!
POINT 3- BOTTOM LINE: You don't, FSO, really want to join Lds "apostles" in their confusion by emphasizing words similar to "qualifications" (language within the Constitution) with words like "qualities." (language thats NOT in the Constitution)...do you?
I focus on what voters base their votes on in the "real world": Qualities
Otherwise, Article VI says absolutely...
...about how voters must weigh--or not weigh--the "qualities" of a candidate...
“I suggest that, if you truly believe in the Bible, you are not living up to what Jesus had to say.”
I suggest you have a selective reading of the totality of the Bible’s teaching about false religions.
You may try reading Peter and Paul, as well as reading of how Jesus treated those in the Temple who
were defiling it...
The Catholic religion has over 1 billion adherents who believe that ordinary bread and wine a transformed into the body and blood of Jesus Christ during the consecration of the Mass and they are not a cult. From the outside ALL religions have strange beliefs. Faith is the belief Without proof.
(So if you had a daughter -- you would sanction her becoming a proselyte...marrying a Mormon man in the Mormon temple...and you would be cut off from seeing that marriage?)
(And, eternally speaking, you would sanction her belief that her husband would be a full-grown god -- and she would rule a new planet with him...and you would sanction your grandchildren believing this as well?)
leastwise that's the Orthodox view on the matter.
There are also a whole flock of groups who sought to revive the First Century church BTW. Those disputes don't enter into their theological viewpoints.
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