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Why No Denomination Will Survive the Homosexuality Crisis
Christian Post Opinion ^ | July 16 2012 | Kevin De Young

Posted on 07/16/2012 6:29:36 PM PDT by scottjewell

There is no way, short of a miraculous and full-scale changing of hearts and minds, for North American denominations to survive the homosexuality crisis. Denominations like the PCUSA, ELCA, RCA, UMC, and Episcopal Church will continue.

They won't fold their tents and join the Southern Baptists (though wouldn't that be interesting!). I'm not suggesting most of our old, mainline denominations will disappear. But I do not see how any of these once flourishing denominations will make it through the present crisis intact.

And the sooner denominations admit this sobering reality the better.

Every denomination is different. The percentages on both sides of the issue and the official positions are not identical. But the basic contours of the problem are quite similar.

On one side you have liberals who want to see the church open its doors to the GLBT agenda. They want homosexual behavior welcomed and affirmed. They want to perform gay marriages. They want gays and lesbians to be ordained to church office. Liberals (or "progressives" or whatever-I'm trying to use neutral labels) see this as a justice issue.

They believe conservatives are simply on the wrong side of history and that one day we will look at our traditional attitudes toward gays and lesbians like we look at old attitudes toward African Americans or our old attitudes toward women's ordination. We will be embarrassed to see that we could have been so blind and bigoted for so long.

On the other side you have conservatives who want to see the church maintain purity and biblical fidelity. They want homosexuals to be loved and treated with respect.

But they believe the behavior cannot be tolerated as Christian behavior. They see this as a gospel issue. They believe liberals are simply on the wrong side of the Bible and one day will be embarrassed to see how much we dishonored God by capitulating to our culture. To cave on this issue is not only to reject the plain teaching of Scripture, affirmed for two millennia of church history, but it says to people "peace, peace" where there is no peace.

n the middle are those who want both sides to get along. Maybe these third way folks are liberals willing to let conservatives keep doing their thing for awhile because they believe today's conservatives will slowly evolve or die off. Maybe they are institutional loyalists who want to preserve the denomination at all costs. Maybe they consider homosexuality a relatively minor issue, one not worth fighting over and dividing the church over. Or maybe, as is often the case, those advocating for a third way are conservatives who don't want to be the meanies who put up a fight.

These are the three main parties in this controversy-left, right, and center-and there is no way to make each of them happy. There is no way for mainline denominations to broker a compromise that everyone can live with.

Read more @:

http://www.christianpost.com/news/why-no-denomination-will-survive-the-homosexuality-crisis-78296/


TOPICS: Moral Issues; Religion & Culture
KEYWORDS: homosexualagenda; religiousleft; sin
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Very probing piece.
1 posted on 07/16/2012 6:29:45 PM PDT by scottjewell
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To: scottjewell

The Catholic Church is not experiencing these wrenching changes. Orthodox are doing pretty well, too. It helps when you have 2000 years of continuous traditionn and your beliefs are not subject to a congregational vote.


2 posted on 07/16/2012 6:34:21 PM PDT by arthurus (Read Hazlitt's Economics In One Lesson)
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To: scottjewell

God will have to pour his New Wine into New Wineskins. The old ones are worthless to hold anything of value.


3 posted on 07/16/2012 6:34:21 PM PDT by fwdude ( You cannot compromise with that which you must defeat.)
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To: scottjewell

My side wasn’t mentioned. The side that thinks homosexuals are mentally ill individuals who should go back in the closet and stay there.

Stop trying to recruit others to their sickness which is becoming epidemic.

And especially leave the kids alone.


4 posted on 07/16/2012 6:35:22 PM PDT by Venturer
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To: scottjewell

The third way is the liberal way, just at a slower speed.

The “third way” has been standard progressive jargon for a century (and not just in religion, but politics in general), because they understand it is a way to achieve their goal. They may achieve it more slowly, but in the end, they win.


5 posted on 07/16/2012 6:37:06 PM PDT by Brookhaven (Obama Admits He Can't Fix What Bush Broke, So Why Reelect Obama?)
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To: Brookhaven

I agree with you that the third way is stealthy and all the more dangerous. Sort of how we got to this point in the general culture....in many areas.


6 posted on 07/16/2012 6:39:59 PM PDT by scottjewell
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To: scottjewell

The conservatives in the Methodist Church made a change in governance that makes it increasingly impossible for the left to prevail. The new Methodist growth is occurring overseas in Africa and Asia and as it grows it adds new votes and representation to the orthodox.


7 posted on 07/16/2012 6:42:46 PM PDT by WashingtonSource
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To: scottjewell

“our old attitudes toward women’s ordination.”

I’ve still got that “old” attitude concerning women’s ordination a/k/a ordain men only.

It’s an attitude shared by many Christian men and women alike of all races. And more importantly, it’s THE Biblical position:

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20timothy%202:11-15%20&version=ESVUK

“Let a woman learn quietly with all submissiveness. I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet. For Adam was formed first, then Eve; and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor. Yet she will be saved through childbearing—if they continue in faith and love and holiness, with self-control.”


8 posted on 07/16/2012 6:43:08 PM PDT by ReformationFan
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To: ReformationFan

Why will she be saved through child bearing?


9 posted on 07/16/2012 6:48:06 PM PDT by dragonblustar (Allah Ain't So Akbar!)
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To: scottjewell

Bottom line is many parents bring their children to church to assist them in developing as Christians in a safe environment. Once the homosexual recruiters infiltrate a parish, the safe environment is gone and the parents leave, taking their children with them. This is how the Episcopal church is being destroyed from within.


10 posted on 07/16/2012 6:51:20 PM PDT by Gabrial (The nightmare will continue as long as the nightmare is in the White House)
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To: scottjewell

The real churches will survive even if smaller. The others will fail because of one thing .... they are missing the glue .... real faith in God.


11 posted on 07/16/2012 6:52:35 PM PDT by RetiredTexasVet (Skittle pooping unicorns are more common than progressives with honor & integrity.)
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To: scottjewell; Brookhaven; Venturer; fwdude

The “third way” is just a cheap euphemism for the Marxian Dialectic.

No sale.

As for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.


12 posted on 07/16/2012 6:55:11 PM PDT by Westbrook (Children do not divide your love, they multiply it.)
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To: scottjewell

>> They believe conservatives are simply on the wrong side of history

I don’t mind being on the “wrong side of history”.

I seriously don’t want to be on the wrong side of God Almighty though. That’s infinitely more important.


13 posted on 07/16/2012 6:57:52 PM PDT by Nervous Tick (Trust in God, but row away from the rocks!)
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To: scottjewell
On one side you have liberals who want to see the church open its doors to the GLBT agenda.

On the other side you have conservatives who want to see the church maintain purity and biblical fidelity.

This should not be liberal vs conservative, but simple right from wrong.

14 posted on 07/16/2012 6:58:24 PM PDT by Rio (Tempis fugit.)
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To: arthurus
The Catholic Church is not experiencing these wrenching changes.

Father Donald B. Cozzens' book "The Changing Face of the Priesthood" conservatively places the percentage of Catholic priests who are homosexual from a minimum low of 23 to a high of 58% - and even that upper number may be low.

This isn't just one priest making the claim either. I have spoken to at least two priests who agreed the percentage was at least half, and approaching two thirds as well.

Surveys of priests claim the number approaching 50% to include the existence of a "homosexual subculture" within the ranks.

15 posted on 07/16/2012 6:59:28 PM PDT by SkyPilot
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To: WashingtonSource
The conservatives in the Methodist Church made a change in governance that makes it increasingly impossible for the left to prevail.

What change in governance did they make? Just curious as we noticed (several years ago) that the Methodist's had, unfortunately, become very tolerant on many social issues. Thanks for any info.

16 posted on 07/16/2012 7:06:12 PM PDT by Jane Long (Soli Deo Gloria!)
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To: Westbrook

In what way , which of the other choices is yours?


17 posted on 07/16/2012 7:06:25 PM PDT by Venturer
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To: dragonblustar

Fulfilling the commandment to be fruitful and multiply.


18 posted on 07/16/2012 7:08:23 PM PDT by GenXteacher (You have chosen dishonor to avoid war; you shall have war also.)
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To: arthurus

Given that the Roman church is still wrenching—world wide—from the so-called “pedophilia priest” crises (which was really a homosexual-priest crises, though no one wants to say so...), I think it’s quite dim to crow that your church is not experiencing these issues.

Probably a higher percentage of Roman Catholic laity support the homosexual agenda than among Protestants—seeing as how the overwhelming majority of RC’s vote for Democrats.

Most Protestants though who are faithful to the bible however, leave the “progressive” churches and join conservative denominations or independent churches. Evangelical churches are still growing—and all stand against the homosexual agenda.


19 posted on 07/16/2012 7:12:31 PM PDT by AnalogReigns (reality is analog, not digital...)
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To: Nervous Tick

Agreed. No one who has died before us is the slightest bit concerned with what we the living think of them. They’re very concerned however with what God thinks of them.


20 posted on 07/16/2012 7:17:20 PM PDT by ReformationFan
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To: scottjewell
In no way has God decided to apologize for what He did to Sodom and Gamorah, nor is he likely to let this nation become as those places were without harsh judgment!
21 posted on 07/16/2012 7:18:13 PM PDT by Ron C.
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To: GenXteacher

“Fulfilling the commandment to be fruitful and multiply.”

This is one of the most interesting phrases in the bible. To complete the phrase I believe it is necessary to include the “why” and that is to “replenish the earth. This begs two questions..1) replenish ( to fill up again)? does this mean the earth was filled before? 2) once replenished then what?

All original interpretations, greek, Aramaic, hebrew use the same “replenish” concept.

My thoughts 1) yes the earth was full before we are living in one of many ages. 2) we better figure this one out because there is such a thing as over fill.


22 posted on 07/16/2012 7:24:01 PM PDT by Breto (The Establishment party is killing our country)
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To: RetiredTexasVet
"The real churches will survive...."

Those today that are 'non-denominational' - not affiliated with any of the old 'mainstream' churches have survived, and many are quite large with 'offspring' churches that thrive.

23 posted on 07/16/2012 7:24:58 PM PDT by Ron C.
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To: Jane Long; WashingtonSource
Not a change, per se. It's the way the United Methodist Church is structured.

The UMC is a world-wide denomination which holds its "General Conference" once every 4 years. Delegates from every area (annual conference) are elected to attend; half are clergy and half are laity. During General Conference, church polity and policy are debated and established for the coming 4 years.

We just held the 2012 General Conference in Tampa this past spring. As always since 1972, there were efforts to change the stance on homosexuality - and especially the most pressing sentence which states, "The United Methodist Church does not condone the practice of homosexuality and considers this practice incompatible with Christian teaching."

To make a long story short, that language was maintained by 55-45 percent. A second attempt - to change the language to the THIRD WAY wording that "we agree to disagree on this issue" [my words, not exact wording] - failed by a larger margin, 40-60%.

The UMC maintained its biblical stance on homosexuality primarily with the help of the African delegates who spoke boldly and clearly for the current language and biblical sexuality.

24 posted on 07/16/2012 7:28:06 PM PDT by Prov3456
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To: dragonblustar; GenXteacher

Because Christ was born of a woman. Salvation for all came through child bearing.


25 posted on 07/16/2012 7:30:25 PM PDT by Valpal1
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To: Venturer

> In what way , which of the other choices is yours?

To avoid “denominations” like the plague that they are.

Not that there aren’t good, solid Christian folks in the congregations, but I’m certain it was never meant to be that way.

From 1st Corinthians Chapter 1

10 ¶ Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.
11 For it hath been declared unto me of you, my brethren, by them which are of the house of Chloe, that there are contentions among you.
12 Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ.
13 Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?
14 ¶ I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius;
15 Lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name.


26 posted on 07/16/2012 7:33:02 PM PDT by Westbrook (Children do not divide your love, they multiply it.)
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To: arthurus

BTTT for your comment.


27 posted on 07/16/2012 7:35:15 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: dragonblustar; ReformationFan

“Let a woman learn quietly with all submissiveness. I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet. For Adam was formed first, then Eve; and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor. Yet she will be saved through childbearing—if they continue in faith and love and holiness, with self-control.” (I Timothy 2:11-15)

I don’t know of any legitimate bible scholars of Greek that think St. Paul was saying there a woman is saved because she has kids.

Paul talks a lot throughout the New Testament about how people are justified, or “saved” and never distinguishes between men and women—all come to God through Jesus. The Church has always taught that too, men and women are both saved the same way...so to try to pretend there’s confusion on something where there is none, is just not helpful.

The verse is assuring Christians that in THE most dangerous life-event for a woman in the ancient (and up into the 1800s) world, child-birth, she will be protected, that’s all.

If you meant that remark to mock the bible so as to dismiss what it says about male authority in the Church, you’re only mocking and dismissing yourself.


28 posted on 07/16/2012 7:36:48 PM PDT by AnalogReigns (reality is analog, not digital...)
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To: RetiredTexasVet

I’ve been thinking for a while now that the true Church in America will eventually have to go underground - meeting in members’ homes instead of church buildings, due in large part to this issue. Then a short time ago we see the guy arrested for hosting a Bible study in his home. Things that make you go “hmmmm.”


29 posted on 07/16/2012 7:39:03 PM PDT by TropicanaRose
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To: SkyPilot
When was that book written?<

In 2010,
seven credible cases of abuse were reported in a church that numbers over 65 million adherents.

30 posted on 07/16/2012 7:42:18 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: SkyPilot


31 posted on 07/16/2012 7:44:28 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: Ron C.

The Sodom and Gomorrah photos are amazing. Thank you for posting.


32 posted on 07/16/2012 7:47:36 PM PDT by johngrace (I am a 1 John 4! Christian- declared at every Sunday Mass , Divine Mercy and Rosary prayers!)
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To: Valpal1; AnalogReigns

Thank you both for your good responses.

Here are two good videos dealing with this topic:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=t5584lmAQUU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zlJnvM8CwY4


33 posted on 07/16/2012 7:47:52 PM PDT by ReformationFan
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To: Breto

No they don’t, the Hebrew word is ‘to fill’ or ‘to be full’.


34 posted on 07/16/2012 7:52:05 PM PDT by Valpal1
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To: ReformationFan

So Paul has the same authority as Christ Our Savior? I have never understood this. Are we the Christian Church or the Paulian Church?


35 posted on 07/16/2012 7:52:41 PM PDT by 2ndDivisionVet (You cannot invade the mainland United States. There would be a rifle behind every blade of grass.)
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To: johngrace

Glad you read there. This is an amazing tale - and even more amazing that it has been discovered anew!


36 posted on 07/16/2012 8:01:14 PM PDT by Ron C.
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To: 2ndDivisionVet

It’s never been a problem for Trinitarians to understand.


37 posted on 07/16/2012 8:04:55 PM PDT by ReformationFan
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To: Venturer

I don’t think that is what Christ wants. Christ wants them healed by being freed from their sin through His grace. Sin is the enemy and we should pray for the defeat of sin, especially when it has so many in its grip.


38 posted on 07/16/2012 8:06:18 PM PDT by lastchance ("Nisi credideritis, non intelligetis" St. Augustine)
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To: AnalogReigns
If you meant that remark to mock the bible so as to dismiss what it says about male authority in the Church, you’re only mocking and dismissing yourself.

I have done no such thing. I just wanted to have clarification. Do you have specific siting in the bible to go along with what you said?

39 posted on 07/16/2012 8:06:48 PM PDT by dragonblustar (Allah Ain't So Akbar!)
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To: Prov3456

Thanks for that info. I suspected that it was the Africans who saved us from a certain schism. Our little rural Methodist church would have lost many members over it and probably would not have survived.


40 posted on 07/16/2012 8:14:48 PM PDT by Montanabound
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To: SkyPilot
I believe arthurus' point is that Catholic doctrine on these matters is not going to change. It is not a matter of bishops meeting somewhere and having a vote to ditch 2000 years of tradition, as the Episcopal church just did. It will simply never happen, whether 1% of priests are homosexuals or 98% are.

Father Donald B. Cozzens' book "The Changing Face of the Priesthood" conservatively places the percentage of Catholic priests who are homosexual from a minimum low of 23 to a high of 58% - and even that upper number may be low.

You should add that Cozzens is a liberal, who has no problem with homosexuals in the priesthood and pals around with Voice of the Faithful, a notorious modernist organization which has been explicitly condemned by, e.g., the bishop of Lincoln, Nebraska.

You should also add that Cozzens' book was published in 2000. This is not a statistic based on some cutting-edge research that was just published.

41 posted on 07/16/2012 8:17:48 PM PDT by Campion ("Social justice" begins in the womb)
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To: Salvation; SkyPilot

Neither the article, nor the response from Sky Pilot had to do with abuse. The question is how Christian churches deal with the presence and acceptance of homosexuals and their agenda.

As I understand his point, whether it is right or wrong, is that there is an attitude of looking the other way in the case of the RC priesthood that is simply one way of dealing with the problem.


42 posted on 07/16/2012 8:27:51 PM PDT by Chaguito
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To: AnalogReigns
I don’t know of any legitimate bible scholars of Greek that think St. Paul was saying there a woman is saved because she has kids.

One of the problems I have with "legitimate" bible scholars is that they twist and spin in all sorts of uncomfortable ways in order to deny what the black words on the white page say.

43 posted on 07/16/2012 8:37:40 PM PDT by CurlyDave
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To: scottjewell

Leviticus (KJV)

18:22 Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is
abomination.

Is that difficult to understand?


44 posted on 07/16/2012 8:44:20 PM PDT by Texas Fossil (Government, even in its best state is but a necessary evil; in its worst state an intolerable one)
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To: scottjewell

perhaps, just perhaps, the protestant revolution was not a good idea after all....???


45 posted on 07/16/2012 8:49:43 PM PDT by terycarl (lurking, but well informed)
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To: Gabrial
This is how the Episcopal church is being destroyed from within.

actually, the episcopal church is being saved....as more and more of them return to Catholicism, more and more of them will be saved !!!!

46 posted on 07/16/2012 8:55:20 PM PDT by terycarl (lurking, but well informed)
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To: CurlyDave
One of the problems I have with "legitimate" bible scholars is that they twist and spin in all sorts of uncomfortable ways in order to deny what the black words on the white page say.

I guess you've never read solid bible commentaries then...there are plenty. While there certainly are poor, manipulative, dishonest Bible scholars--there are many who are terrific. What sounds odd in an English translation--isn't so odd in Greek. It isn't un-Christian or un-Conservative to really study the bible--relying on the good, not the trashy, scholarship.

I gave you a solid, easy to understand argument already too--Paul explains salvation in many places--and ALWAYS its the same for men and women. It's just plain silly to imagine suddenly, as an aside, he's saying women gain salvation by having babies--rather than believing and following Christ.

In this passage Paul isn't explaining salvation anyway--he's talking about leadership in the Church...

Not a very complicated passage to understand--in its plain meaning, unless, you want to be confused.

47 posted on 07/16/2012 9:03:45 PM PDT by AnalogReigns (reality is analog, not digital...)
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To: 2ndDivisionVet
So Paul has the same authority as Christ Our Savior? I have never understood this.

It is recorded that Jesus delegated His authority to the Apostles--who actually wrote the New Testament--telling us about Jesus.

Paul's letters in the New Testament have the authority of the Apostles--which is to say--they have the authority of Christ.

The Church from the earliest days recognized the writings of the New Testament as having exactly the same highest authority as the words of Jesus Himself. This is why Christians call the Bible "God's Word."

(In fact there aren't even any quotation marks in the original Greek texts of the Gospels--delineating exactly which were Jesus' words, as opposed to the writer's words...quotation marks are a translators' educated guess)

The Church is built on the authority of the Apostles--as found in the New Testament--there is no Christian Church without regarding Paul's (and Peter's and James' and John's etc.) words in the New Testament as having the same authority--as delegated by Christ--of Christ Himself.

To try to separate out Jesus words out of the Bible as somehow more authoritative--than the work of the authors who first told us about Jesus (the Bible)....is to invite chaos and destruction into the Church.

Who are you, or me, or anyone, to question Jesus's Apostle, Paul?

48 posted on 07/16/2012 9:18:22 PM PDT by AnalogReigns (reality is analog, not digital...)
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To: terycarl
perhaps, just perhaps, the protestant revolution was not a good idea after all....???

Right, we could have just purchased an indulgence for forgiveness of sins and been golden?????? Dang it, missed the indulgence boat.

49 posted on 07/16/2012 9:19:53 PM PDT by xone
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To: AnalogReigns

Paul never met Jesus, as I’m sure you know.


50 posted on 07/16/2012 9:36:44 PM PDT by 2ndDivisionVet (You cannot invade the mainland United States. There would be a rifle behind every blade of grass.)
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