Posted on 07/02/2012 6:30:14 AM PDT by Cronos
Pio, the evangelical treatment of this is no secret. Faith will always, always, always result in some kind of work. If it did not, it would be like talking of a fire that burns but makes no heat.
Unlike some posters, most have read the whole thread, tee, hee, and see the fallacy (sorry for the fancy word meaning error) of other's stated position, the abject knuckleheadedness of the other's position notwithstanding. Good luck with the dictionary. I hope the yeast count is down. Lack of intelligence isn't an excuse, but willful spiritual blindness is to be expected for those who spend their time in the counsel of those who seek to calm the itching ear.
Ain’t it the sad sad truth. I was going to start a blog called “someone on the internet is wrong,” but someone else was already using it. Argh!
Peace,
SR
Only to one who has been 'stoogeified' by the company they keep. One who relies on the 'Fakecy' of a bunch of Baalist priests, then cherry picks verses out of context to support the nonsense, deserves the same thing God delivered via Elijah. Unlike others on this thread who have rightly declined to engage based upon the reliance on latter day loser 'prophets', I will continue, although the thoughts and position of someone proposing the same positions is painful. These truly are the last days of which my Lord spoke. Even Satan knows the basics of the Scriptures, while he doesn't believe, he uses that knowledge to dupe the stupid that rely on their own understanding and don't hold to God's Word. .
“Sure lost track of the original issue in the middle of a protestant/catholic bashfest here.”
~ ~ ~
Hi,
“Issue” with accepting the faith...it’s never been resolved so who cares. There’s an answer.
The disagreements between Protestants and Catholics will go on for another 100 years unless God acts. He’s going to and He keeps letting us know through prophecy.
Protestants are repeatedly protesting, declaring, calling their own prophet false. They don’t like Our Lord’s words to Kevin Barrett. Jesus’ words have been believed and shared for 2000 years.
Discuss the issues all you want, but do not make it personal.
Really, stpio, when are you going to show any evidence that you actually READ any replies given to you? Now here you are giving ANOTHER dubious "quote" of Luther's with NO source to back it up, as per your usual habit. Do you really think people will just believe something because you said it? Besides that, no one here has said Luther is whom we look for our salvation. He was NOT the only, nor even the first, Reformer and he is a man who sins as we ALL do. He is not our "Pope" nor do any Lutherans consider him to be. We look to the Divinely-inspired Holy Bible for the doctrines we must follow to know God and be saved - just as Luther did and advised ALL to do.
It is sounding like you are striking out in the, "Let's dig up all the dirt we can on Luther...yeah that'll show 'em!" department. Is this such a hard thing to understand that "Protestants" don't look to any other than Jesus Christ for our faith? The only prophets we listen to are the ones already included in the Bible. They spoke for God and we can be confident that what is in Scripture IS God's word. What real proof do you have that the ones you are promoting are genuine? Because they say what you already believe? God already told us how we can know who speaks for Him, and your "guys" do NOT cut it. If they were talking like this in Old Testament times around the faithful Jews, they would NOT have been happy with their treatment...God commanded that false prophets be stoned - and not the "fun" kind of being stoned either.
And one last time...I and others HAVE replied to your badgering about those verses on this as well as other threads but it seems to make no difference. What would be the point if I answered them again? Would it do anything to change your mind? Is your mind already made up and nothing anyone says can affect it? See, that just might be a clue why the reception you are experiencing here is not as you probably expected.
My friend, the current respondent claims word from our Lord, that are of course finished by ‘Love to All, Jesus’. Since I’m not Paul, I would still love to hear or read his words to one such as this. I assume nothing, other than the poster is a ‘fake?’ catholic, that relies upon latter day prophecy that plays to catholic or protestant in turn depending on the audience. That equated such ramblings with the testimony of Daniel and St John. Relies on kooky website for ammo, but might if unchallenged lead a weak brother/sister astray into the darkness in which they reside. Many more erudite and competent Christians have rightfully refused to engage a Minnesota State bird such as this because of the false prophet angle, and I acknowledge and salute their position. But like the purveyors of ‘Royanity’ that post every couple of weeks, these prophets of Baal need to be hammered and mocked.
“Faith Alone” isn’t true and you don’t want to discuss
Gospel verses that shows it is a lie, so the anger.
“Only to one who has been ‘stoogeified’ by the company they keep.”
I won’t accuse you of being a William F. Buckley type.
Brother, you just remarked, these are the “Last days.”
Then please answer the question. Which of thirty thousand plus Protestant sects is Jesus returning to say is the true faith? You have to go further. God is not the author of confusion. He’s coming to bring all people to one belief.
The number, by itself, of non-Catholic Christian sects would make me run to the faith.
“Pio, the evangelical treatment of this is no secret. Faith will always, always, always result in some kind of work. If it did not, it would be like talking of a fire that burns but makes no heat.”
~ ~ ~
“Faith Alone” is not true and Faith doesn’t make you do
anything brother. You have to decide to do a “work” always.
This is why the non-Catholic Christian guys are so insulting and upset. They can’t reconcile a paragraph. It’s full Our Lord stating quite a few Protestant heresies are lies. Jesus doesn’t have to go on, He makes it clear
in a few words.
blessings,
Kevin’s website: http://hearhisheart.wordpress.com/
an excerpt fro the April 1, 2012 message:
Oh hear Me, My people. Why do you listen to the hirelings and false teachers and prophets? Did I not say in My word that not all that say to me ‘Lord’ ‘Lord’ shall enter into the kingdom of heaven, save those that do the will of the Father who is in heaven? Then why do you still go about doing your own will and tell yourselves that you are My bride? My people, you have been lied to by the enemy of your soul. Seek Me in these things. Surely I will reveal My truth to you. I love you, My dear children, and it is My desire that each of you share My throne with Me. But unfortunately only a remnant shall overcome. For too many have listened to the lies told by the FALSE shepherds and prophets. They speak of how you each are already cleansed and adorned in righteousness simply by your BELIEF on My name. These are all lies, My people. For does not My word say that he who DOES righteousness is righteous? Yes, My people, you are made righteous by your faith in Me, but it is FULLFILLED BY YOUR OBEDIENCE to My voice. IT IS NOT IMPUTED TO YOU BY A ONE-TIME CONFESSION OF MY NAME. Oh, My people, you have been lied to. Read My word for yourselves. Why listen to those that fatten themselves by fleecing My sheep? I have not sent many of the shepherds that are out there. They have sent themselves for their own glory and their own profit. Oh, My people, did I not say in My word to judge them by their fruit? Then where is the fruit, My people? Oh, but those that have itching ears care not about the fruit. They want to be told all is well and that they shall PROSPER if they simply believe on My name and My promises. Lies, lies, lies, I tell you.
Some people don't read their reply posts, this has been asked and answered. When the answer didn't fit the Baalist paradigm, I guess it was discarded.
As to end times, the DR version of the Bible must have left out the admonition regarding the rise and proliferation of false prophets, but then it must have also omitted: Ephesians 2:7-9
7 that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.
No prob, noob, stick around, you'll see it alot.
If you’re always trying to tack “decided” works onto what you call your faith, friend, then it’s not saving faith. Saving faith moves you, and evangelicals know this.
P.S. Pio: yes of course it is possible to either stifle or grow faith by choices... just as you can feed or smother a fire... but this is not the same thing as calling some dry assertion your faith and then piling up works in your own power to make affairs complete. If the two don’t connect in unity, then it isn’t saving faith. And saving faith always moves to something, just like the smallest fire still smolders.
Look guys, with all due respect, this whole line of reasoning about who’s siding with who on what issue and what malevolence it may or may not reveal is not only childish and slightly paranoid, IMHO, but it may even be a violation of the spirit of 1 Cor 13:
1Cor 13:4-7 Love suffers long and is kind; love does not envy; love does not parade itself, is not puffed up; [5] does not behave rudely, does not seek its own, is not provoked, thinks no evil; [6] does not rejoice in iniquity, but rejoices in the truth; [7] bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.
And ….
Prov 17:9 He who covers a transgression seeks love, But he who repeats a matter separates friends.
So what I see happening, as a relative newcomer to these debates, is Team C looking for reasons, no matter how remote, to trash talk Team P, when in reality every player is just a unique individual who entered and participated in the debate as they saw fit on a given day. Maybe they let one person go because they were so focused on another line of thought they just didn’t want to deal with multiple fronts. That’s not malicious intent, and it’s not “everybody who isn’t us is conspiring against us.” It’s just, what looks good on the menu today, and how much can I spend. That’s it.
So I’d call finding these allegedly nefarious patterns nothing more than selective perception. Some here are, um, so deeply cocooned in their own view of the world that everything on the outside looks the same to them. Sort of like when you visit a foreign country and all the natives “look alike.” That’s because your perceptual apparatus isn’t taking in all the real detail, just selecting things you can handle. And it skews your understanding of what you’re looking at.
And there’s no shame in it. It happens to all of us. It’s human nature. We compulsively filter the world and remake it into something we can handle. And that’s where love comes in. Jesus said we should love each other as we love ourselves. That’s not just a theoretical “I want you to be saved” love. That’s a “how can I make your life better today” love. One thing I like to do is forget about wrongs done to me, because that’s what I’d like others to do for me. And that’s helpful, because it means each next step in a relationship is a potential new beginning, the prospect of something better to come.
No, I’m not going to be stupid and waste my valuable time and effort on people who don’t really want to interact with me. Life is too short for that meaningless little game. But neither am I going to be looking for evil intent where there is none. That is also a complete waste of the vigor of life.
So my aim is this, to speak the truth to the best of my understanding, to speak it in love to the best of my ability, and to trust God and not myself for the outcome.
Well, that’s all I have to say on the matter. Let the food fight resume.
Peace & Love (no I am not a hippie and my hair isn’t that long either.)
SR
I owe you a reply, but have become involved, albeit very slightly, in a nearby food fight. When I have cleaned up, I will return to our envigorating conversation. Probably tomorrow morning or thereabouts. Thank you for your patience.
Peace,
SR
“If you’re always trying to tack “decided” works onto what you call your faith, friend, then it’s not saving faith. Saving faith moves you, and evangelicals know this.”
~ ~ ~
Hi, you’re back to that false “faith alone.” You, me, we’re not robots. Faith doesn’t make you do anything. Plenty of people with faith have fallen and acted terribly, committed mortal sin. It is free will choice with the help of God’s grace to decide to do a “work.”
I am no writer, here is what I said, better explained.
Some Protestants insist that it is the faith that does the work in us not we ourselves. Faith (God’s gift to man through His Word / Eph 2:8; Rom 10: 17) is a necessary motivation for us to obey but it DOES NOT make us obey. Man has a choice to resist or yield, therefore the obedience is our responsibility. It is our OBEDIENCE IN RESPONSE to faith that brings justification (and Eternal Life). Justification then brings “perfect” or “complete” faith, the proof we have that Eternal Life (See John 3:36!). Further, Eternal Life is something we possess in degrees and that corresponds to how close we have grown to Christ. It is Eternal Life we are given not a promise of the eternal possession of that life. That Life, however, is so powerful that nothing in all the universe, but one’s own self will and sin, can remove us from Christ’s hand (Romans 8:35-39).
faith does not guarantee a perfect walk on earth. you have set up a straw man. faith always burns with works of some sort, however, whether they are only small ones that scarcely anyone but God can see, or large ones that are obvious to all men.
it sounds like what you are calling your own, personal faith is generating no works. the love from Christ when accepted will always move in your heart. it will not guarantee a perfect walk, but it will always move.
Yeah, I’ve heard (right here from Episcopalians on another thread) that the Episcopal Church is a groovy place to go now!
p.s. your “obedience in response” is at best ambiguous. is the obedience actually rooted in the faith (in which case we’d be actually talking about the same thing in different words) — or in our own human fallen self-efforts to prove that what we’ve called our faith means something.
it’s not nearly as hard as you are making it out to be. it’s the love from Christ that when accepted ignites faith, from which works come. the Lord gives you some control over the size of the faith in you, but only the Lord can actually effect its presence.
Tell me was it you xone? Someone said Jesus is returning
to say Baptists have the true faith. We’re all going to
become Baptists. And I asked...Southern Baptists? There
are various sects (denominations) of Baptists.
Ephesians 2:7-10
That he might shew in the ages to come the abundant riches of his grace, in his bounty towards us in Christ Jesus. [8] For by grace you are saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, for it is the gift of God; [9] Not of works, that no man may glory. [10] For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus in good works, which God hath prepared that we should walk in them.
[9] Not of works: as of our own growth, or from ourselves; but as from the grace of God.
Repeating yourself, sorry, these verses from Ephesians have been explained already. Paul is not talking about Luther’s “Faith Alone”, look at his words in context. He’s speaking of God’s grace, anything you do apart from God’s “grace” will not save you. Paul means our own works, not Luther’s mistaken no works!
The Apostles, the first Christians never taught “faith alone”, it’s from Martin Luther.
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