Posted on 06/13/2012 2:59:02 PM PDT by Gamecock
You are correct. As Scripture says in 2 Peter 1:9
The verses I posted were from Paul. He’s the one who says by the Holy Spirit that we are seated in the heavenly places and sealed with the promised Holy Spirit until the day of redemption.
If you disagree with that, it doesn’t make Paul a liar.
Scripture makes clear it is both faith and works. It is not faith alone.
“Scripture makes clear it is both faith and works. It is not faith alone”
You are exactly right. Tell that to the once-saved, always-saved, Jimmy Swaggart crowd.
I’m sure you will remind God what good works you did won’t you?
What does "This is My Body" mean to you?
Your tradition says Is = Represents.
If Scripture means anything you want it to mean, it means nothing.
Let’s look at the Greek
Estin- is 3rd person singular active indicative
Mat 3:17 and behold, a voice out of the heavens, saying, "This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well-pleased."
Mat 3:17 kai idou fwnh ek twn ouranwn legousa outov estin o uiov mou o agaphtov en w eudokhsa
So, is Jesus the Son of God, or does he represent the son of God?
Mat 17:5 While he was still speaking, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them; and behold, a voice out of the cloud, saying, "This is My beloved Son, with whom I am well-pleased; listen to Him!"
Mat 17:5 eti autou lalountov idou nefelh fwteinh epeskiasen autouv kai idou fwnh ek thv nefelhv legousa outov estin o uiov mou o agaphtov en w eudokhsa tsbautou akouete aautou
Again, is Jesus the Son of God, or does he represent the son of God?
Mat 26:26 And while they were eating, Jesus took some bread, and after a blessing, He broke it and gave it to the disciples, and said, "Take, eat; this is My body."
Mat 26:26 esqiontwn de autwn labwn o ihsouv ton arton kai euxaristhsav euloghsav eklasen kai douv edidou toiv maqhtaiv tsbkai eipen labete fagete touto estin to swma mou
This is the same estin. By what logic do you change the estin here to mean ‘represents’? There is no logic to support your tradition.
Mat 26:28 for this is My blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for forgiveness of sins.
Mat 26:28 touto gar estin to aima mou to thv kainhv diaqhkhv to peri pollwn ekxunnomenon ekxunomenon eiv afesin amartiwn
This is the same estin. By what logic do you change the estin here to mean ‘represents’? There is no logic to support your tradition.
Mar 14:22 And while they were eating, He took some bread, and after a blessing He broke it; and gave it to them, and said, "Take; this is My body."
Mar 14:22 kai esqiontwn autwn labwn o ihsouv arton euloghsav eklasen kai edwken autoiv kai eipen labete fagete touto estin to swma mou
This is the same estin. By what logic do you change the estin here to mean ‘represents’? There is no logic to support your tradition.
Mar 14:24 And He said to them, "This is My blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many.
Mar 14:24 kai eipen autoiv touto estin to aima mou tsbto thv kainhv diaqhkhv to ekxunnomenon uper peri pollwn ekxunomenon
This is the same estin. By what logic do you change the estin here to mean ‘represents’? There is no logic to support your tradition.
a man is justified by faith apart from worksThe full quote is "works of the Law", i.e. the Law of Moses. This is made clear by the rest of the passage that you included:
Or is God the God of Jews only? Is He not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, since indeed God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith is one.If you would read all of Romans you would see that Paul is arguing against those who would have Christians continue to follow the Mosaic Law. It is not a treatise about "faith alone". This is the same argument in Galatians and Philippians. Among the Jews the mention of the Law/Torah is understood as the Law of Moses.
Nor does anything you have written explain the clear meaning of the passages that I cited against "faith alone". If you are going to claim Scripture you must claim all of it, not just those verses that seem to support your position.
Returning to the topic of this thread, notice that we are arguing about the meaning of Scripture. I have not relied on any statement of the Catholic Church. We both cite Scripture to support our positions. To whom to we appeal to know the true meaning? Do not say the Bible because that is where we started. Without an divinely established authority all we are left with is our personal, and very fallible, opinion.
This discussion also highlights the danger of trying to interpret Scripture without proper understanding and guidance from the Church. A proper understanding of Scripture would have known that Paul's reference to the Law was the Mosaic Law. All too often I see Protestant explanation of Scripture as an attempt to force it to support an a priori dogma found in their tradition while at the same time completely ignoring all passages that would call that dogma into question.
He won't have to:
I'm trying, even with the Hobart's Glory Barn crowd.
metmom:
Thanks for that theological statement from the Church of Metmom. Of course, as you are well aware, I reject the theological statements from the Church of Metmom.
Titanites: That is an invented conflict of those who do not trust in the Scriptures.
No, it's actually Holy Spirit inspired Scripture written by Paul.
Galatians 2:21 I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness were through the law, then Christ died for no purpose.
Matthew 7:15-27 15 “Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves. 16 You will recognize them by their fruits. Are grapes gathered from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17 So, every healthy tree bears good fruit, but the diseased tree bears bad fruit. 18 A healthy tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a diseased tree bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Thus you will recognize them by their fruits.
21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ 23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’
24 “Everyone then who hears these words of mine and does them will be like a wise man who built his house on the rock. 25 And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house, but it did not fall, because it had been founded on the rock. 26 And everyone who hears these words of mine and does not do them will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand. 27 And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell, and great was the fall of it.”
Those Christ says He never knew DID appeal to their works. Obviously their works didn't save them.
So that verse can't be used to support your claim.
1 Corinthians 6:9-11 9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, 10 nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.
There were that no longer. They got saved out of that lifestyle and were saved. That doesn't mean that a believer who happens to fall into sin isn't saved any more. It's referring to unbelievers who are living in those sins. So that verse doesn't apply to support your contention either.
John 20:21-23 [Jesus] said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, so I send you.” And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, “Receive the holy Spirit. Whose sins you forgive are forgiven them, and whose sins you retain are retained.”
1 John 1:7-10 7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin. 8 If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
Believers sin and provision is made for forgiveness. There is no provision for retaining sin and it doesn't affect one's salvation. If it did, it would reduce salvation to being based on works. If you're good enough, you get in. If not, too bad for you.
If you don't get saved by works, you don't stay saved by works.
Galatians 3:1-10 O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? It was before your eyes that Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified. 2 Let me ask you only this: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law or by hearing with faith? 3 Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh? 4 Did you suffer so many things in vain—if indeed it was in vain? 5 Does he who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you do so by works of the law, or by hearing with faith— 6 just as Abraham “believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness”? 7 Know then that it is those of faith who are the sons of Abraham. 8 And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, “In you shall all the nations be blessed.” 9 So then, those who are of faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith. O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? It was before your eyes that Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified. 2 Let me ask you only this: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law or by hearing with faith? 3 Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh? 4 Did you suffer so many things in vain—if indeed it was in vain? 5 Does he who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you do so by works of the law, or by hearing with faith— 6 just as Abraham “believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness”?
7 Know then that it is those of faith who are the sons of Abraham. 8 And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, “In you shall all the nations be blessed.” 9 So then, those who are of faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith.
10 For all who rely on works of the law are under a curse; for it is written, “Cursed be everyone who does not abide by all things written in the Book of the Law, and do them.”
John 6:63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is no help at all. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life.
The Spirit gives life. The flesh is no help at all>
Couldn't get much simpler.
You need to look at ALL of scripture, not just the verses that support your traditions.
According to you, you can just ignore this:
Jesus said to them, "I tell you the truth, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. John 6:53
unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you.
Throughout the Gospels Jesus refers to both "the flesh" and "my flesh". The two are not synonymous.
Peace be with you.
Again, before you can understand this you must gain an understanding of the difference between substance and property. The accidents of the Eucharist pass through the body, but the substance of God remains. At the most basic level think of why the Eucharist is often referred to as a host.
Peace be with you.
1 John 1:5-10 5 This is the message we have heard from him and proclaim to you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. 6 If we say we have fellowship with him while we walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. 7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin.
8 If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
God does not count our sin against us when we trust in Christ.
Colossians 2:13-15 13 And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses, 14 by canceling the record of debt that stood against us with its legal demands. This he set aside, nailing it to the cross. 15 He disarmed the rulers and authorities and put them to open shame, by triumphing over them in him.
We are set free. If Catholics want to put themselves under bondage to try to live a perfect life that nobody is capable of living and try to earn heaven by their own efforts, well, have at it.
We believers know that we have been set free from the obligation to obey the Law because we have been forgiven, the record of debt against us has been canceled, we have transferred into the kingdom of the Son He loves, been given redemption, are new creatures in Christ and live and move and have our being in Him.
We are FREE!
You sound like the 0bama supporter who said she wouldn't have to worry about paying her mortage or for gas.
Paul told us -Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed—not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence—continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose. (Phil. 2:12,13)
S0 if Mary’s death was not documented, she never died. Likewise,Peter.Paul, John etc. My point being that Scriptures are not a complete record, but a collection of writings by the Apostles and those close to them. They tell us nothing about the careers of anyone beyond the year 60 A.D. But we have made stories that have also been passed down, such as about the deaths of Peter and Paul in Rome. The Scriptures are silent about these events, but that proves nothing one way or another. Now Mary is not mentioned after The opening of Acts. Yet by the end of the century is already “the Virgin.” central to the disputes about the divinity of Jesus. By the end of the second century, she is central to orthodox Christian theology. How can you ever talk about the idea of the incarnation without bringing her into the matter. Furthermore, already in the early second century, Rome claimed Peter and Paul for itself. Yet no one, no place claimed Mary. The fact needs to be dealt with. Why not? Of all the places Mary was said to live: Jerusalem, Ephesus, no place claimed to be the resting place of the mother of Jesus.
Indeed. The whole controversy between Paul and the Christian Jews boils down to the question: must every Christian be circumcised and/or follow the NATIONAL law of the Jews?
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