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WHY THE MAGISTERIUM MAKES SENSE TO ME
Ignitum Today ^ | February 2, 2012 | Colin Gormley

Posted on 02/03/2012 6:31:03 AM PST by NYer

I am married to a Korean national. I mention this not just because it is cool (and it is cool) but I’ve learned quite a few things about my Faith from being close to someone of a very different culture.

Because of my wife’s nationality I know quite a few Koreans by association. They come from education backgrounds that make your humble scribe feel quite inferior, or at least I’d feel that way if they weren’t so humble about it. And one of the core components of this education is learning the English language.

To me they do indeed speak English well. Some can even speak without the hint of a Korean accent. I know firsthand how difficult this is given my own extremely difficult time learning Korean.

(What does this have to do with the Magisterium? Please bear with me).

However despite their best efforts I have come to notice that no matter how fluent they were certain ways they would speak seemed…well..awkward. For example, almost to a man, when one of my wife’s friends say something like they were sick yesterday they would say “My condition was not good.” This was true regardless of how well any of them spoke English. I pointed it out to my wife and she noted that it was more or less a direct translation of the Korean expression for having been sick in the past. Despite the quality of their English, they were still speaking Korean using English words.

Another time my wife was telling me about her college days and describing a particular student and his relationship to the students in her freshman group. There literally is no English word for the particular position that this person held. It is something of a cross between a mentor, a Resident Assistant, and a full blown teacher. The attempt of my wife to explain this concept actually took a bit of time, and my above description is my best attempt to explain this position.

What I’m trying to say is that one’s culture has a powerful effect on one’s exposure to concepts as well as how one is going to express themselves. The ability to communicate with one another is heavily dependent on the concepts being discussed and the modes of expression that the communicants share. The greater the disparity in either, the more communication it takes to attempt to bridge the gap.

At one point this started me thinking about the Bible. The books are written a long time ago by a culture with wildly different concepts and modes of expression than we have in modern English. And the New Testament was a translation of one culture into another, from the Jewish culture and language (Aramaic) to the Common Greek. Not only are these cultures different from ours (the Jewish and the Greek) but both cultures have grown and developed over time.

Just to give one example is the notion of “brother” in Jewish culture. The original Aramaic that Jesus and His followers spoke had no concept of “cousin.” To describe the relationship of one cousin to another they would say something like, “He is the son of my father’s brother.” Given how wordy this is they would simplify it to “he is my brother.”

Now someone might object to this by pointing out that the Common Greek had a word for cousin and if the authors wanted to say “cousin” they would have. But to me this doesn’t fly for two reasons. First, that knowledge of a language does not bestow the modes of expression the language uses. As in my first example, the Korean expressing that they were sick still use the Korean wording of the concept rendered into English. Second, given that Jesus and his people used Aramaic to communicate, it is actually more accurate to have a word for word translation, complete with ambiguity, rather than to impose a meaning on the words by trying to translate the wording into something more friendly to the new language.

These things led me to realize that if the Body of Christ has to go at Faith with a Bible Alone approach we are doomed. The time, culture and language separations are a huge obstacle to getting at the actual meaning of the texts, with all the nuance and subtlety that comes with theological understanding and the development of those concepts. This is readily apparent with our Protestant brethren, who continue to split into numerous sects and sects within sects.

The Bible is a product of the times and cultures that produced it. Despite the fact that it is the inerrant Word of God it still uses human culture and language to communicate to us. And because of the limits of both human language and cultural concepts, the existence of the Magisterium and Sacred Tradition simply make sense.

Our Lord provided us with an authoritative body that can express the Truths of Revelation over time and cultures without error. A body that has the authority to interpret the Sacred Texts and present them to all cultures and times. A body that lives and breathes with the cultures in time but stands above them. That such a body, the Magisterim, exists is not only to my mind beneficial, but necessary for preserving the Word of God and revealing the Word to us using the concepts and modes of communication we use.

My exposure to a foreign culture as different as the Korean one only illustrates the need for the Sacred Tradition, and the need for the authority of the Magisterium to guarantee the transmission of that Tradition. There is more to the Truth of the Word than our cultures and languages can transmit. The Magisterium exists to teach us in the ways we communicate today, and will exist to teach the cultures of the future. Through the Magisterium we overcome the Tower of Babel now and in the future.


TOPICS: Apologetics; Catholic; Religion & Culture; Theology
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61 posted on 02/03/2012 4:21:08 PM PST by narses
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To: CommerceComet

Wow CommerceComet, should be getting a 10,000 copy/paste heading our way. Hoping that a flood of words will give the response legitimacy.


62 posted on 02/03/2012 5:02:31 PM PST by crosshairs (Liberalism is to truth, what east is to west.)
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To: Quix
Don't look at me.

However, read more context.

John 10:31-39 31 The Jews picked up stones again to stone him. 32 Jesus answered them, “I have shown you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you going to stone me?”

33 The Jews answered him,“It is not for a good work that we are going to stone you but for blasphemy, because you, being a man, make yourself God.”

34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, ‘I said, you are gods’? 35 If he called them gods to whom the word of God came—and Scripture cannot be broken— 36 do you say of him whom the Father consecrated and sent into the world, ‘You are blaspheming,’ because I said, ‘I am the Son of God’? 37 If I am not doing the works of my Father, then do not believe me; 38 but if I do them,even though you do not believe me, believe the works, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me and I am in the Father.” 39 Again they sought to arrest him, but he escaped from their hands.

I think He's pointing out their hypocrisy in that they'll accept the *ye are gods* when it comes to talking about men but when someone actually comes along and claims to be God, they're ready to stone Him.

Jesus made it pretty clear who He was. How could He be accusing someone of blasphemy for stating what He had been telling them all along?

63 posted on 02/03/2012 5:11:17 PM PST by metmom (For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
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To: PetroniusMaximus

Because the Bible is static while the Magisterium is not.


64 posted on 02/03/2012 5:11:29 PM PST by papertyger
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To: CommerceComet

Hardly. The entire gathering was in turmoil UNTIL Peter stood up and gave the official reasoning... at which time James as the local Bishop gave his ruling.


65 posted on 02/03/2012 5:18:05 PM PST by papertyger
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To: metmom

I agree.

However, I don’t think the context will influence him at all. Sadly.

Thx thx.

BTW, you have email.


66 posted on 02/03/2012 5:18:30 PM PST by Quix (Times are a changin' INSURE you have believed in your heart & confessed Jesus as Lord Come NtheFlesh)
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To: CommerceComet

So Mary, who was in the kingdom was greater.

What’s your problem?


67 posted on 02/03/2012 5:23:28 PM PST by papertyger
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To: presently no screen name
They fiercely fight to keep those chains of bondage. And they have read the Truth here over and over and it has no effect. The lies/deception they were fed have taken deep roots. They have no one to blame when the time comes. Time is better spent on those who want to hear/learn The Truth, IMO

Don't kid yourself. If you do-it-yourself theologians could give true freedom...I'd still be one of you.

68 posted on 02/03/2012 5:27:46 PM PST by papertyger
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To: papertyger
If you do-it-yourself theologians could give true freedom...I'd still be one of you.

Yeah, I could see you as one - and probably still have some of it in you.

I'm humble, I'm no theologian. I'm a child of God and The Teacher of HIS WORD is His Spirit. Just the way God designed it to be.

69 posted on 02/03/2012 5:55:29 PM PST by presently no screen name
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To: presently no screen name

Sorry. Posturing humility doesn’t work when you play critic.

If God designed his word to be your teacher why didn’t he give us a book instead of a church?


70 posted on 02/03/2012 6:04:35 PM PST by papertyger
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To: smvoice
It's taken deep root because the flesh has a veracious appetite to be fed. If it can be seen, felt, heard, smelled, or tasted, the flesh is satisfied. For a short time. Then it's back to the 5 senses for gratification. Which is exactly what the RCC does. Feeds the 5 senses. And deceives people into believing that the 5 senses lead to the spirit. Which is why they are so easily deceived. By "visions", "apparitions","miracles", the eucharist, sacraments, etc. All appealing to the flesh.

Wait a second here --- are you saying that when you hear or read the Bible, the written Word of God, you are doing that somehow without using any of your five senses?
71 posted on 02/03/2012 6:27:01 PM PST by Heart-Rest ( "The Church is the pillar and bulwark of the truth." (1 Timothy 3:15))
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To: CynicalBear; NYer; cloudmountain
Take a hint. She wasn’t supposed to be venerated or the apostles would have written about it. As I said earlier, the entire myth of Mariology is just that. Myth. Not sanctioned by scripture.

Are you saying that if it isn't in the Bible, it didn't happen?

(In other words, if there is no mention in the Bible of the original Apostles dying, to you that means they didn't die, or that they were not shown great honor when they died, simply because it wasn't recorded in the Bible? If you do not know the exact circumstances of their deaths, do you then automatically assume those deaths could not possibly have happened? Or would you have to say, "perhaps they died here, at such-and-such date, or perhaps they died there, at this other date -- we don't know for sure"?) Do you really think it would have been unlikely that the other Christians showed them all great honor at their deaths, even if that wasn't recorded in the Holy Scriptures?

By the way, you do understand that "venerate" simply means (by definition) to show great respect, honor, and love towards a person, don't you? (It does NOT mean worship.)

Jesus told the rich guy (recorded in Mark 10) that one of the things he should do to obtain eternal life was to obey the commandments, and he pointed out several specific ones, including the commandment to honor one's father and mother. Do you think Jesus honored his own mother? Do you think Jesus would want everyone else to honor his mother Mary as well? Do you think the original Apostles honored the mother of Jesus?

While (to my knowledge) no one has ever stated that a person must honor Mary in order to gain salvation, it would also appear to me to be a very unwise thing to in some way dis-honor the mother of Jesus, who is God.

(In fact, you should never dishonor anyone's mother.)
72 posted on 02/03/2012 6:57:51 PM PST by Heart-Rest ( "The Church is the pillar and bulwark of the truth." (1 Timothy 3:15))
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To: CynicalBear; NYer; cloudmountain
Take a hint. She wasn’t supposed to be venerated or the apostles would have written about it. As I said earlier, the entire myth of Mariology is just that. Myth. Not sanctioned by scripture.

Are you saying that if it isn't in the Bible, it didn't happen?

(In other words, if there is no mention in the Bible of the original Apostles dying, to you that means they didn't die, or that they were not shown great honor when they died, simply because it wasn't recorded in the Bible? If you do not know the exact circumstances of their deaths, do you then automatically assume those deaths could not possibly have happened? Or would you have to say, "perhaps they died here, at such-and-such date, or perhaps they died there, at this other date -- we don't know for sure"?) Do you really think it would have been unlikely that the other Christians showed them all great honor at their deaths, even if that wasn't recorded in the Holy Scriptures?

By the way, you do understand that "venerate" simply means (by definition) to show great respect, honor, and love towards a person, don't you? (It does NOT mean worship.)

Jesus told the rich guy (recorded in Mark 10) that one of the things he should do to obtain eternal life was to obey the commandments, and he pointed out several specific ones, including the commandment to honor one's father and mother. Do you think Jesus honored his own mother? Do you think Jesus would want everyone else to honor his mother Mary as well? Do you think the original Apostles honored the mother of Jesus?

While (to my knowledge) no one has ever stated that a person must honor Mary in order to gain salvation, it would also appear to me to be a very unwise thing to in some way dis-honor the mother of Jesus, who is God.

(In fact, you should never dishonor anyone's mother.)
73 posted on 02/03/2012 6:57:51 PM PST by Heart-Rest ( "The Church is the pillar and bulwark of the truth." (1 Timothy 3:15))
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To: CynicalBear; NYer; cloudmountain
Take a hint. She wasn’t supposed to be venerated or the apostles would have written about it. As I said earlier, the entire myth of Mariology is just that. Myth. Not sanctioned by scripture.

Are you saying that if it isn't in the Bible, it didn't happen?

(In other words, if there is no mention in the Bible of the original Apostles dying, to you that means they didn't die, or that they were not shown great honor when they died, simply because it wasn't recorded in the Bible? If you do not know the exact circumstances of their deaths, do you then automatically assume those deaths could not possibly have happened? Or would you have to say, "perhaps they died here, at such-and-such date, or perhaps they died there, at this other date -- we don't know for sure"?) Do you really think it would have been unlikely that the other Christians showed them all great honor at their deaths, even if that wasn't recorded in the Holy Scriptures?

By the way, you do understand that "venerate" simply means (by definition) to show great respect, honor, and love towards a person, don't you? (It does NOT mean worship.)

Jesus told the rich guy (recorded in Mark 10) that one of the things he should do to obtain eternal life was to obey the commandments, and he pointed out several specific ones, including the commandment to honor one's father and mother. Do you think Jesus honored his own mother? Do you think Jesus would want everyone else to honor his mother Mary as well? Do you think the original Apostles honored the mother of Jesus?

While (to my knowledge) no one has ever stated that a person must honor Mary in order to gain salvation, it would also appear to me to be a very unwise thing to in some way dis-honor the mother of Jesus, who is God.

(In fact, you should never dishonor anyone's mother.)
74 posted on 02/03/2012 6:57:51 PM PST by Heart-Rest ( "The Church is the pillar and bulwark of the truth." (1 Timothy 3:15))
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To: Heart-Rest
Really? Must I explain?

"But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God." (1 Cor. 2:10).

If you have received Christ as your Savior, you have the Holy Spirit dwelling in your body and the Spirit of God will reveal truth to you. His Word is truth. THerefore, if you study His Word, the Holy Spirit will reveal His truth to you.

God did not say that miracles, signs, wonders, apparitions, masses, religious institutions, wafers, wine, statues, saints, rosaries, incense, chants, lighting candles, or fallible men who declare themselves infallible, would reveal His truth. He said the Holy Spirit would reveal truth. IF the Holy Spirit resides in you. And if you are saved, you are a member of the body of Christ, and the Holy Spirit resides in you.

75 posted on 02/03/2012 7:00:45 PM PST by smvoice (Better Buck up, Buttercup. The wailing and gnashing are for an eternity..)
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To: presently no screen name; papertyger
I'm humble, I'm no theologian.

No doubt about it. Keep working on the moustache.


76 posted on 02/03/2012 7:21:00 PM PST by MarkBsnr (I would not believe in the Gospel, if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so.)
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To: Heart-Rest
Of course you would like us to believe you don’t worship her.

Let’s take the prayer of Prayer of Pope Pius XII.
[http://catholicism.about.com/od/tothevirginmary/qt/Honor_Immacula.htm]

I’ll use just the bolded excerpts from the prayer.

we cast ourselves into your arms

1 Peter 5:7 Casting all your care upon him; for he careth for you. (When did we need to replace God with Mary?)

confident of finding in your most loving heart appeasement of our ardent desires, and a safe harbor from the tempests which beset us on every side.

Hebrews 4:15-16 For we do not have a High Priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but was in all points tempted as we are, yet without sin. Let us therefore come boldly to the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy and find grace to help in time of need. (once again Catholics replacing Christ with Mary)

O crystal fountain of faith

Romans 12:3 according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith. or "a measure of faith." (but Mary is the “fountain of faith” for Catholics)

Lily of all holiness

1 Samuel 2:2 There is none holy as the LORD: for there is none beside thee: neither is there any rock like our God. (for Catholics however, “all holiness” is given to Mary)

Conqueress of evil and death

Hosea 13:14 I will ransom them from the power of the grave; I will redeem them from death: O death, I will be thy plagues; O grave, I will be thy destruction: repentance shall be hid from mine eyes. (but Catholics claim it was Mary who conquered death)

Convert the wicked

John 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. 8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: 9 Of sin, because they believe not on me; (Catholics have even replaced the Holy Spirit with Mary)

Statement by catholic Bishop Liqouri “.......We often more quickly obtain what we ask by calling on the name of Mary than by invoking that of Jesus.....” She...is our Salvation, our Life, our Hope, our Counsel, our Refuge, our Help”

Need I go on? Catholics have replaced virtually every attribute and working of God and given that to Mary in their worship.

77 posted on 02/03/2012 7:30:45 PM PST by CynicalBear
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To: smvoice
You wrote, "Which is exactly what the RCC does. Feeds the 5 senses. And deceives people into believing that the 5 senses lead to the spirit."

My question to you is (in other words), do you also believe that your spirit gets fed by the senses, such as by reading (sense of sight) the written Word of God, or hearing (sense of hearing) the written Word of God?
78 posted on 02/03/2012 7:33:20 PM PST by Heart-Rest ( "The Church is the pillar and bulwark of the truth." (1 Timothy 3:15))
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To: Heart-Rest

**(In fact, you should never dishonor anyone’s mother.)**

Ditto, but I would never bow to a statue of anyone’s mother.

Jesus Christ knew exactly what he was doing when he made sure his written Word would have no quotes from him directly addressing Mary as ‘mother’, for he knew that vain men and women would soon elevate her to near god status.

What Mary ‘mothered’, hungered, thirsted, even died and was buried. “But him hath GOD raised up”.


79 posted on 02/03/2012 7:33:43 PM PST by Zuriel (Acts 2:38,39....nearly 2,000 years and still working today!)
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To: Heart-Rest
>> Do you think Jesus honored his own mother?<<

Luke 11:27-28 27 And it came to pass, as he spake these things, a certain woman of the company lifted up her voice, and said unto him, Blessed is the womb that bare thee, and the paps which thou hast sucked. 28 But he said, Nay rather, (Greek Menounge: nay surely, nay rather) blessed are they that hear the word of God, and keep it.

>>While (to my knowledge) no one has ever stated that a person must honor Mary in order to gain salvation,<<

'Therefore, if some should presume to think in their hearts otherwise than we have defined (which God forbid), they shall know and thoroughly understand that they are by their own judgment condemned, have made shipwreck concerning the faith, and fallen away from the unity of the Church; and, moreover, that they, by this very act, subject themselves to the penalties ordained by law if, by word or writing, or any other external means, they dare to signify what they think in their heart' (The Decree of Pope Pius IX on the Immaculate Conception of the Blessed Virgin Mary, From the Bull Ineffabilis Deus [A.D. 1854]. Taken from Schaff, The Creeds of Christendom, 2:212).

80 posted on 02/03/2012 7:38:53 PM PST by CynicalBear
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