Posted on 01/15/2012 10:10:29 PM PST by bibletruth
1 Timothy 2:5 ...one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.
If there is a debate here then it must follow Bible Scriptures to advocate reproofs, corrections, and instructions on how God the Father has ordained and appointed someone other than HIS SON Christ Jesus as that mediator. In light of 1 Timothy 2:5 - there is no debate here since God's Word clearly points out that that mediator is is Christ Jesus, who has been appointed 2,000 years ago between God and men.
Nothing, as expected.......
Carry on.
So, we have to go back to the KJV to hear *fruit of the womb*...
OK.....
Yes
Is asking the saints in heaven to pray for us the same thing as conjuring spirits?
Yes
In Revelation 5:8, the saints in heaven offer our prayers to God.
No, they don't:
Rev 5:8Doesn't say that they are our prayers (that is--live saints). They could be. But not necessarily. And it also does not say that it is the saints doing this, but the elders and beasts mentioned.
And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four [and] twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.
Also notice that the "prayers of the saints" are going to the Lamb--not Mary. And nowhere in that account does it say that Mary passed these along. This passage does not support prayers to Mary.
And I haven't seen a link to it yet showing me where I said it, as I asked.
Bishop Liguori’s excessive language is the effusive and often hyperbolic language of love. It is not to be confused with dogmatic teaching.
No knowledgeable Catholic believes that Mary is the ultimate source of our Hope or Salvation, except in the remote sense that her ascent to God’s will for her brought into the world Jesus, The Source of our Hope and Salvation.
The central question is, What does the Catholic Church dogmatically teach regarding Mary? The answer to that question is available for all to read on-line in the Catechism of the Catholic Church.
Yes, Mary is holy and sinless, since she is “full of grace,” and the Queen of Heaven, as the Catholic Church and Bible teach.
Google Catholic prayer to Mary and saints....
http://www.catholic.org/prayers/prayer.php?s=31
http://www.marypages.com/PrayerstoMary.htm
And do not Catholics pray to Michael the Archangel for protection?
ttp://www.ewtn.com/devotionals/prayers/michael.htm
h St. Michael the Archangel, defend us in battle. Be our defense against the wickedness and snares of the Devil. May God rebuke him, we humbly pray, and do thou, O Prince of the heavenly hosts, by the power of God, thrust into hell Satan, and all the evil spirits, who prowl about the world seeking the ruin of souls. Amen.
And Christopher for safety traveling?
http://www.catholic-saints.info/catholic-prayers/prayer-to-saint-christopher.htm
"Grant me, O Lord, a steady hand and watchful eye. That no one shall be hurt as I pass by. You gave life, I pray no act of mine may take away or mar that gift of thine. Shelter those, dear Lord, who bear my company, from the evils of fire and all calamity. Teach me, to use my car for others need; Nor miss through love of undue speed The beauty of the world; that thus I may with joy and courtesy go on my way. St. Christopher, holy patron of travelers, protect me and lead me safely to my destiny. Amen. "
And to Anthony to help find something lost?
http://www.ourcatholicprayers.com/prayers-to-st-anthony.html
"Saint Anthony, perfect imitator of Jesus, who received from God the special power of restoring lost things, grant that I may find (mention your petition) which has been lost. As least restore to me peace and tranquility of mind, the loss of which has afflicted me even more than my material loss."
Maybe we should take our disagreement “to the church,” as Jesus recommended.
http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p123a9p6.htm
I find Church teaching to be beautiful, like a fine diamond.
Because they're dead. They died in their physical bodies and left this earth and we are prohibited in Scripture from trying to contact the dead by God himself, regardless of what the Catholic church teaches.
And I'm not interested in the rationalization that they're alive in heaven because every soul of someone who died on earth is alive somewhere else. That is not justification enough to excuse disobeying clear commands of God. Just because the Catholic church made it legal, doesn't mean it's right.
There was no Scripture there--just assertions.
And Mary was His mother.
First, I doubt that you will object to this passagef rom The Catechism:
970 “Mary’s function as mother of men in no way obscures or diminishes this unique mediation of Christ, but rather shows its power. But the Blessed Virgin’s salutary influence on men . . . flows forth from the superabundance of the merits of Christ, rests on his mediation, depends entirely on it, and draws all its power from it.”513 “No creature could ever be counted along with the Incarnate Word and Redeemer; but just as the priesthood of Christ is shared in various ways both by his ministers and the faithful, and as the one goodness of God is radiated in different ways among his creatures, so also the unique mediation of the Redeemer does not exclude but rather gives rise to a manifold cooperation which is but a sharing in this one source.”514
So how do we reconcile the Catechism with prayers beseeching the intercession of St. Michael, for example? It’s simply understood that St. Michael’s power to defend us from “the wickedness and snares of the devil” derives from God.
I might say to my cancer surgeon, “you’re my only hope!” But I wouldn’t consider him my “only hope” in the way I regard God as my only hope.
Most of this controversy seems to stem from ambiguous language or figures of speech, which is why I refer to the Catechism for clear, doctrinal language.
The Catechism of the Catholic church? OK.
How about this? Right from Vatican.va itself......
http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P2C.HTM
963 Since the Virgin Mary's role in the mystery of Christ and the Spirit has been treated, it is fitting now to consider her place in the mystery of the Church. "The Virgin Mary . . . is acknowledged and honored as being truly the Mother of God and of the redeemer.... She is 'clearly the mother of the members of Christ' ... since she has by her charity joined in bringing about the birth of believers in the Church, who are members of its head."500 "Mary, Mother of Christ, Mother of the Church."501
964 Mary's role in the Church is inseparable from her union with Christ and flows directly from it. "This union of the mother with the Son in the work of salvation is made manifest from the time of Christ's virginal conception up to his death";502 it is made manifest above all at the hour of his Passion:
Thus the Blessed Virgin advanced in her pilgrimage of faith, and faithfully persevered in her union with her Son unto the cross. There she stood, in keeping with the divine plan, enduring with her only begotten Son the intensity of his suffering, joining herself with his sacrifice in her mother's heart, and lovingly consenting to the immolation of this victim, born of her: to be given, by the same Christ Jesus dying on the cross, as a mother to his disciple, with these words: "Woman, behold your son."503
965 After her Son's Ascension, Mary "aided the beginnings of the Church by her prayers."504 In her association with the apostles and several women, "we also see Mary by her prayers imploring the gift of the Spirit, who had already overshadowed her in the Annunciation."505
966 "Finally the Immaculate Virgin, preserved free from all stain of original sin, when the course of her earthly life was finished, was taken up body and soul into heavenly glory, and exalted by the Lord as Queen over all things, so that she might be the more fully conformed to her Son, the Lord of lords and conqueror of sin and death."506 The Assumption of the Blessed Virgin is a singular participation in her Son's Resurrection and an anticipation of the resurrection of other Christians:
In giving birth you kept your virginity; in your Dormition you did not leave the world, O Mother of God, but were joined to the source of Life. You conceived the living God and, by your prayers, will deliver our souls from death.507
969 "This motherhood of Mary in the order of grace continues uninterruptedly from the consent which she loyally gave at the Annunciation and which she sustained without wavering beneath the cross, until the eternal fulfilment of all the elect. Taken up to heaven she did not lay aside this saving office but by her manifold intercession continues to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation .... Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked in the Church under the titles of Advocate, Helper, Benefactress, and Mediatrix."510
970 "Mary's function as mother of men in no way obscures or diminishes this unique mediation of Christ, but rather shows its power. But the Blessed Virgin's salutary influence on men . . . flows forth from the superabundance of the merits of Christ, rests on his mediation, depends entirely on it, and draws all its power from it."511
"No creature could ever be counted along with the Incarnate Word and Redeemer; but just as the priesthood of Christ is shared in various ways both by his ministers and thefaithful, and as the one goodness of God is radiated in different ways among his creatures, so also the unique mediation of the Redeemer does not exclude but rather gives rise to a manifold cooperation which is but a sharing in this one source."512
971 "All generations will call me blessed": "The Church's devotion to the Blessed Virgin is intrinsic to Christian worship."513 The Church rightly honors "the Blessed Virgin with special devotion. From the most ancient times the Blessed Virgin has been honored with the title of 'Mother of God,' to whose protection the faithful fly in all their dangers and needs.... This very special devotion ... differs essentially from the adoration which is given to the incarnate Word and equally to the Father and the Holy Spirit, and greatly fosters this adoration."514 The liturgical feasts dedicated to the Mother of God and Marian prayer, such as the rosary, an "epitome of the whole Gospel," express this devotion to the Virgin Mary.515
973 By pronouncing her "fiat" at the Annunciation and giving her consent to the Incarnation, Mary was al ready collaborating with the whole work her Son was to accomplish. She is mother wherever he is Savior and head of the Mystical Body.
974 The Most Blessed Virgin Mary, when the course of her earthly life was completed, was taken up body and soul into the glory of heaven, where she already shares in the glory of her Son's Resurrection, anticipating the resurrection of all members of his Body.
Ping to the heresies in post 232
We can see now why the RCC rejects Scripture as the final authority.
Just... wow.....
I can't see anything less clear than Catholic statements on anything. They're written so that anything can be gleaned from it and it can support any unscriptural doctrine.
Just... wow.....
I can't see anything less clear than Catholic statements on anything. They're written so that anything can be gleaned from it and it can support any unscriptural doctrine.
Catholics are forever telling us that Scripture and CCC don't mean what they say but rather Scripture and CCC mean what the Church says it means.
“As the Bible teaches”? Are you kidding? First of all Mary surely didn’t realize she was sinless.
Luke 1:29 And when she saw him, she was troubled at his saying, and cast in her mind what manner of salutation this should be.
How could anyone think that a person who is sinless doesn’t know it and others around that person wouldn’t have noticed?
Kecharitomene is a derivative of the word charitoo which we can find the meaning of here. [http://www.biblestudytools.com/search/?q=charitoo&rc=LEX&rc2=LEX+GRK&ps=10&s=References]
Charitoo
to make graceful charming, lovely, agreeable to peruse with grace, compass with favour to honour with blessings
This has been debated over and over and not once can anyone show that kecharitomene ever means sinless. On the other hand let’s look at words that do mean sinless. [http://www.biblestudytools.com/search/?q=sinless&rc=LEX&rc2=LEX+GRK&ps=10&s=References]
Anamartetos
sinless of one who has not sinned of one who cannot sin
Not once used to or about Mary.
Pluno
to wash: with reference to clothing use figuratively of those who by faith so appropriate the results of Christ's expiation as to be regarded by God as pure and sinless
Used about all true believers.
Anamartetos
sinless of one who has not sinned of one who cannot sin
Again, never used about or to Mary.
Hagion
reverend, worthy of veneration of things which on account of some connection with God possess a certain distinction and claim to reverence, as places sacred to God which are not to be profaned of persons whose services God employs, for example, apostles set apart for God, to be as it were, exclusively his services and offerings prepared for God with solemn rite, pure, clean in a moral sense, pure sinless upright holy
In Ephesians 1:6 we can see that God has granted every true believer with grace.
Ephesians 1:6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
Luke 1:28 is rightly translated “highly favored”. To try to make that verse somehow infer that Mary was sinless is deceitful.
I prefer the easier “Saint Anthony, Saint Anthony, please come around, something is lost, and cannot be found.”.
:)
We have the Spirit of God living in us, a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance.
1 John 4:1-4 1 Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world. 2 By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, 3 and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you heard was coming and now is in the world already. Little children, you are from God and have overcome them, for he who is in you is greater than he who is in the world.
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