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Must We Believe in the Virgin Birth?
AlbertMohler.com ^ | December 14, 2011 | Dr. Albert Mohler

Posted on 12/19/2011 4:02:26 PM PST by rhema

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To: aruanan

Also what helps the Jewish/Christian scriptures is what is called “Biblical archeology” in Israel.


101 posted on 12/20/2011 3:23:27 AM PST by Biggirl ("Jesus talked to us as individuals"-Jim Vicevich/Thanks JimV!)
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To: Biggirl
Also what helps the Jewish/Christian scriptures is what is called “Biblical archeology” in Israel.

Yes, but what started the whole thing was Heinrich Schliemann, who advocated the historical reality of places mentioned in the works of Homer, such as Troy, and the Mycenaean sites Mycenae and Tiryns, which he excavated. Before form criticism of the Bible, the critics had applied their techniques to Homer.
102 posted on 12/20/2011 4:06:44 AM PST by aruanan
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To: aruanan

I do believe what helped the Bible cause was this one Israeli who has become a “legend” in the field of Bible Archaeology, Yigael Yadin. Here is an article about this writer’s friendship with Mr. Yadin:

http://www.biblicalarchaeology.org/daily/biblical-topics/biblical-archaeology-topics/how-i-met-yigael-yadin-the-star-of-israeli-archaeology/


103 posted on 12/20/2011 4:21:31 AM PST by Biggirl ("Jesus talked to us as individuals"-Jim Vicevich/Thanks JimV!)
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To: Cronos; 1000 silverlings; Alex Murphy; bkaycee; blue-duncan; boatbums; caww; count-your-change; ...

Baiting if I’ve ever seen it.

Working on the presumption of guilt or knowledge of a position held is intellectually dishonest debate tactic and only amounts to flame baiting.

Because this is not an unrecognized tactic from Catholics, I’m not going there. Until there is some integrity in the questions asked, they will remain unanswered.

Assume the worse if you will. It will happen anyway, no matter what I say.


104 posted on 12/20/2011 4:43:28 AM PST by metmom (For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
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To: Cronos

Man, that was a work of beauty. Apparently that’s what passes for religious discussion; assuming of course one is either horribly ashamed of their own religion’s stance on a subject, or just too plain ignorant to be able to explain it.


105 posted on 12/20/2011 4:53:13 AM PST by Hegewisch Dupa
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To: Hayride

You know, I was under the mistaken idea that all those recent translations were done ‘without any monkey business’. Yet, I have had it demonstrated that that is not so.

Granted, at first the KJV may be a bit difficult to understand. I liken it to when I was in high school and had to read Shakespeares Othello. Boy, was THAT hard to undertsand. At first. But as ones mind begins to wrap itself around that different way of thinking/speaking, it becomes easier and more understandable.

The same is true for the KJV. Indeed, once one becomes accustomed to the language, it can be quite beautiful.

Additionally, one should look at the groups, the very people involved in these nice new ‘translations’. In many cases, they are not ones that should be involved in a Faithful translation of Gods Word.


106 posted on 12/20/2011 5:00:40 AM PST by RoadGumby (This is not where I belong, Take this world and give me Jesus.)
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To: rhema
To my mind (and probably ONLY to my mind) you've asked the wrong question. Other than die, you MUST not do anything. Other than ultimate death, you have a choice. In America, you have the freedom to choose - tho this is eroding quickly under the current regime led by the stain.

Perhaps a better "phraseology" for the question might have been, "Do we have the choice to believe in the virgin birth or not?"

107 posted on 12/20/2011 5:04:13 AM PST by Logic n' Reason (N/A)
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To: eastforker

That’s because Jesus IS The Word:
[1] In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. [2] The same was in the beginning with God. [3] All things were made by him: and without him was made nothing that was made. [4] In him was life, and the life was the light of men. [5] And the light shineth in darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.

[6] There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. [7] This man came for a witness, to give testimony of the light, that all men might believe through him. [8] He was not the light, but was to give testimony of the light. [9] That was the true light, which enlighteneth every man that cometh into this world. [10] He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.

[11] He came unto his own, and his own received him not. [12] But as many as received him, he gave them power to be made the sons of God, to them that believe in his name. [13] Who are born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. [14] And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we saw his glory, the glory as it were of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. [15] John beareth witness of him, and crieth out, saying: This was he of whom I spoke: He that shall come after me, is preferred before me: because he was before me.


108 posted on 12/20/2011 5:27:29 AM PST by sayuncledave (et Verbum caro factum est (And the Word was made flesh))
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To: eastforker
It was the Jewish sect that translated that! I will make you a bet. I bet you can not find where the first 5 books of the bible , written in ancient greek, are located or stored for referance.

They aren't...They don't exist...

109 posted on 12/20/2011 5:51:37 AM PST by Iscool (You mess with me, you mess with the WHOLE trailerpark...)
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To: Salvation
Are you not believing the Bible?

Not your bible...

110 posted on 12/20/2011 6:04:23 AM PST by Iscool (You mess with me, you mess with the WHOLE trailerpark...)
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To: Cronos; XeniaSt; Buggman

Unitariarns definitely are not Christian.

I’m disappointed in Messianics if they reject the Virgin Birth. This is the first I’ve heard of this.


111 posted on 12/20/2011 6:07:32 AM PST by xzins (Pray for Our Troops Remaining in Afghanistan, now that Iran Can Focus on Injuring Only Them)
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To: rhema

Yes. It’s called “Faith”


112 posted on 12/20/2011 6:32:24 AM PST by paterfamilias
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To: Iscool
You mean as in the Septuagint? Or?
113 posted on 12/20/2011 6:35:20 AM PST by count-your-change (You don't have to be brilliant, not being stupid is enough.)
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To: xzins; Cronos
Cronos>Yet look at Unitarians or uri’s messianic-something religious group. They reject the virgin birth. And if you listen even briefly to the big kirk guys like Osteen, etc, you can wonder what they preach on this...

There are some who are just making stuff up !

Messianics do not reject the Virgin Birth;
they are the only ones who have clearly explained
from scripture the purpose of the virgin birth
that does not include the Queen of Heaven.

Miriam's role was not her
characteristics or value,
but her bloodlines to King David,
having no brothers and
the exception started by
the daughters of Zelophehad.

There are five things that are important here:

1. Miriam is a daughter who has no brothers
and is descended from King David.

2. Joseph is descended from King David.
But he is from a line prohibited to inherit.

3. The inheritance exception granted for
the daughters of Zelophehad
(These were daughters who had no brothers)
is in effect SEE: (Numbers 26, 27, 36; Joshua 17; 1 Chronicles 7).

4. If a woman who has no brothers marries
a man of the same tribe
She can inherit forever.

5. Joseph and Miriam are married
(each descended from King David)
thus providing Miriam with permanent
inheritance of the Kingship of David
for her to pass on to her son Yah'shua (Messiahship).

Some members of the Roman "church" are acting on orders
from their god haSatan in an attempt to discredit all who
disagree with Constantine's Roman "church"

As we speak, in Israel they are lighting the first candle for Chanukah.

Careful reading of YHvH's WORD if illuminated by the Ru'ach HaKodesh
will demonstrate the on this Feast the Light of the world
took on the garment of human flesh as the Lamb of G-d
on the first day of Chanukah.

Yah'shua was born on the YHvH commanded feast of Tabernacles.

One might want to become more skeptical of members of the Roman "church"
as we enter endtimes as there seems to be a one world religion movement.

All Praise for the Light of the world
entering to tabernacle with us and redeem us.

shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua HaMashiach
114 posted on 12/20/2011 7:34:57 AM PST by Uri’el-2012 (Psalm 119:174 I long for Your salvation, YHvH, Your law is my delight.)
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To: metmom
Cronos: what argument does your group give against the virgin birth?

Metmom: baiting

Really? On what basis does this sect say that the Virgin Birth was false?

115 posted on 12/20/2011 7:43:22 AM PST by Cronos (Nuke Mecca and Medina now..)
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To: UriĀ’el-2012; xzins

Wait a minute,Uri — your posts in the past have denied Christ’s divinity. Is that taken back? btw, xzins, I don’t know if Uri represents all Messianics or their philosophy.


116 posted on 12/20/2011 7:44:59 AM PST by Cronos (Nuke Mecca and Medina now..)
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To: Hegewisch Dupa; metmom
just too plain ignorant to be able to explain it.

It's incredible -- if they can only attack other's faith rather than talking about their own it says a lot....

117 posted on 12/20/2011 7:46:12 AM PST by Cronos (Nuke Mecca and Medina now..)
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To: Salvation; Iscool

Salvation - some believe in the Koran instead....


118 posted on 12/20/2011 7:47:38 AM PST by Cronos (Nuke Mecca and Medina now..)
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To: Cronos; xzins
Wait a minute,Uri — your posts in the past have denied Christ’s divinity. Is that taken back? btw, xzins, I don’t know if Uri represents all Messianics or their philosophy.

I can not tell if you are functionally illiterate or
see and believe only what you want to believe.

Perhaps you just want to play " you and him fight !"

I have NEVER denied the divinity of Yah'shua !

I reject the Roman "church" DOGMA of the Trinity.

YHvH has appeared to mankind at various times in different modes.
Theophanies, the Spirit of YHvH, Shekinah.

Yah'shua clearly stated that there is only ONE G-d: YHvH.
see Mark 12:29, where Peter is quoting Yah'shua.

YHvH's NAME has been blotted out over seven thousand times
in all English translations and replaced with "LORD".

shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua HaMashiach
119 posted on 12/20/2011 8:12:10 AM PST by Uri’el-2012 (Psalm 119:174 I long for Your salvation, YHvH, Your law is my delight.)
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To: Cronos; metmom; UriĀ’el-2012
sadly, this was the next stage in their development. Metmom -- what argument does your group give against the virgin birth?

Cronos, I've got to stop you here. I can't answer directly for metmom, but I do know that in most areas the two of us agree on Biblical topics and I've never heard her reject the Virgin Birth, nor do I know of any other Protestants which do reject the Virgin Birth. That's one of the fundamentals of the Faith which all branches of Christianity agree upon.

As for your claim that Uri's group denies the Virgin Birth, where has this been claimed? I've not heard this at all.

Please, explain yourself here.

120 posted on 12/20/2011 8:19:56 AM PST by Avalon Hussar
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To: metmom

“Assume the worse if you will. It will happen anyway, no matter what I say.” — though if some group is exceptionally cagey about what they believe or not — not even explaining why they deny the virgin birth, what can one do?


121 posted on 12/20/2011 8:27:13 AM PST by Cronos (Nuke Mecca and Medina now..)
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To: Avalon Hussar; UriĀ’el-2012
As for your claim that Uri's group denies the Virgin Birth, where has this been claimed? I've not heard this at all.

Valid question -- I've interacted with XeniaST for years and that is where that statement comes from.

As to his statement that "Yah'shua clearly stated that there is only ONE G-d: YHvH. see Mark 12:29, where Peter is quoting Yah'shua." -- and that "YHvH has appeared to mankind at various times in different modes." --> I stand corrected -- XeniaST does believe in the Unity in Trinity, God the Father, Son and Holy Spirit

122 posted on 12/20/2011 8:33:13 AM PST by Cronos (Nuke Mecca and Medina now..)
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To: xzins; Cronos; XeniaSt; Buggman
I'm sorry, who exactly rejected the Virgin Birth in the Messianic movement? All of the mainstream Messianic organizations affirm it.

Shalom

123 posted on 12/20/2011 8:37:24 AM PST by Buggman (returnofbenjamin.wordpress.com - Baruch haBa b'Shem ADONAI!)
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To: Cronos; UriĀ’el-2012
Valid question -- I've interacted with XeniaST for years and that is where that statement comes from.

As to his statement that "Yah'shua clearly stated that there is only ONE G-d: YHvH. see Mark 12:29, where Peter is quoting Yah'shua." -- and that "YHvH has appeared to mankind at various times in different modes." --> I stand corrected -- XeniaST does believe in the Unity in Trinity, God the Father, Son and Holy Spirit

Maybe I'm missing something here, but you seem to be equating Uri with this XeniaST person. Who is this XeniaST person that they can speak for Uri's group's beliefs? I don't quite follow where you're going here.

124 posted on 12/20/2011 8:41:33 AM PST by Avalon Hussar
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To: Buggman; Cronos; XeniaSt

Thanks, Buggs. I thought I would have heard of it, if it were the case. Someone probably miscommunicated and another misunderstood it.


125 posted on 12/20/2011 8:42:35 AM PST by xzins (Pray for Our Troops Remaining in Afghanistan, now that Iran Can Focus on Injuring Only Them)
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To: xzins; Cronos; XeniaSt; Buggman
If I had to hazard a guess, I'll bet that someone saw a Messianic discussing the precise meaning of almah in the original Biblical Hebrew and jumped to conclusions.

Shalom

126 posted on 12/20/2011 8:48:31 AM PST by Buggman (returnofbenjamin.wordpress.com - Baruch haBa b'Shem ADONAI!)
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To: metmom

Here it is Christams week and the celebration of Jesus birth, our Savior coming to the world... yet they still cannot see Him as first and foremost....

BUT.....It remains all about....”The son is given”...”The Savior”...”THe King”.....and He shall be called “Jesus”...to those who love and serve Him above all others.

Praise God for His great love to us all.. that HE would come to dwell among men in the form of the Christ-child!!!!

The Old Testament declared......”He’s coming!”.....the Gospels declared....’He’s here!’.... and the rest reveal... “He’s coming again!”


127 posted on 12/20/2011 9:31:51 AM PST by caww
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To: count-your-change
You mean as in the Septuagint? Or?

That and anything else that came out of Africa...

128 posted on 12/20/2011 10:04:39 AM PST by Iscool (You mess with me, you mess with the WHOLE trailerpark...)
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To: Cronos
Salvation - some believe in the Koran instead....

Yes some do...Some like that guy that wears a hat that looks like a grapefruit while wearing a dress and red shoes, kissing a green Koran...Some folks like him apparently believe in the Koran...

Was that any one you know???

129 posted on 12/20/2011 10:09:29 AM PST by Iscool (You mess with me, you mess with the WHOLE trailerpark...)
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To: rhema
 
 
Gospel
Luke 1:26-38 ©
The angel Gabriel was sent by God to a town in Galilee called Nazareth, to a virgin betrothed to a man named Joseph, of the House of David; and the virgin’s name was Mary. He went in and said to her, ‘Rejoice, so highly favoured! The Lord is with you.’ She was deeply disturbed by these words and asked herself what this greeting could mean, but the angel said to her, ‘Mary, do not be afraid; you have won God’s favour. Listen! You are to conceive and bear a son, and you must name him Jesus. He will be great and will be called Son of the Most High. The Lord God will give him the throne of his ancestor David; he will rule over the House of Jacob for ever and his reign will have no end.’ Mary said to the angel, ‘But how can this come about, since I am a virgin?’ ‘The Holy Spirit will come upon you’ the angel answered ‘and the power of the Most High will cover you with its shadow. And so the child will be holy and will be called Son of God. Know this too: your kinswoman Elizabeth has, in her old age, herself conceived a son, and she whom people called barren is now in her sixth month, for nothing is impossible to God’ ‘I am the handmaid of the Lord,’ said Mary ‘let what you have said be done to me.’ And the angel left her.


130 posted on 12/20/2011 10:10:02 AM PST by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: Iscool

Maybe I’m a bit slow here but the LXX has been/is quite a useful work to Christians and Jews.


131 posted on 12/20/2011 10:19:06 AM PST by count-your-change (You don't have to be brilliant, not being stupid is enough.)
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To: Cronos; Avalon Hussar
I stand corrected -- XeniaST does believe in the Unity in Trinity, God the Father, Son and Holy Spirit

Wrong again !

You continue to put words in my mouth.

I do not now nor have I ever believed in the
Roman Pagan DOGMA of the trinity !

That heresy was promulgated by the
Roman Pontiff, Constantine in 325CE.

shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua HaMashiach
132 posted on 12/20/2011 11:33:15 AM PST by Uri’el-2012 (Psalm 119:174 I long for Your salvation, YHvH, Your law is my delight.)
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To: UriĀ’el-2012; Avalon Hussar

Ok, then my mistake, let’s rephrase it: XeniaST (now with a new screen tag Uri’el-2012) does not believe in the Trinity and in fact Uri/Xenia believes that the Trinity (which Christians believe in) is pagan — correct?


133 posted on 12/20/2011 12:31:14 PM PST by Cronos (Nuke Mecca and Medina now..)
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To: Biggirl
As I say, nothing is IMPOSSIBLE with God!

A reliable source agrees with you:

(Matthew 19:26) But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, "With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible".

134 posted on 12/20/2011 12:39:45 PM PST by Pollster1 (Natural born citizen of the USA, with the birth certificate to prove it)
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To: Avalon Hussar; UriĀ’el-2012

My apologies Avalon, XeniaST was Uri’el-2012’s screen name for nearly a decade before 2010. He changed it to Uri’el-2012. Not sure why, perhaps something to do with 2012 end times or something.


135 posted on 12/20/2011 12:40:51 PM PST by Cronos (Nuke Mecca and Medina now..)
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To: Buggman; xzins

Not really, I made the error of taking one person’s views and comments as representative of all — I apologize for that error.


136 posted on 12/20/2011 12:41:47 PM PST by Cronos (Nuke Mecca and Medina now..)
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To: UriĀ’el-2012; 1000 silverlings; Alex Murphy; bkaycee; blue-duncan; boatbums; caww; ...

I believe that since the Catholics have been told to lay off the direct questioning of people concerning their religious affiliation, that they have resorted to finding the information by process of elimination. Throw out some absurd claim and then make them deny it.

What’s going on is that the Catholics are then setting themselves up as judge and jury, passing judgment on who’s a *real* Christian based on some arbitrary criteria they established, such as whether you agree with their man-made precepts and doctrines or not.

Anyone they go after is then being constantly put on the defensive to *prove* the validity of their Christianity to someone who will never be satisfied with any answer given but complete compliance and embracing of THEIR CHURCH and its doctrine.

So I’m going to participate in providing information to an unbeliever so they can pass judgment on the validity of my faith by their measure? I don’t think so.


137 posted on 12/20/2011 1:00:42 PM PST by metmom (For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
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To: Avalon Hussar; Cronos; UriĀ’el-2012

He’s working on assumptions and you know what happens when one assumes something......

Except UriÂ’el-2012 and I are exempt. It’s just self-inflicted at that point.


138 posted on 12/20/2011 1:03:51 PM PST by metmom (For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
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To: Avalon Hussar; Cronos; UriĀ’el-2012

And I’m not playing his stupid little gotcha games.


139 posted on 12/20/2011 1:04:26 PM PST by metmom (For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
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To: metmom

No gotcha games — just a question — why believe that? you ask me and other in orthodoxy about our faith, so why can’t we ask you about yours?


140 posted on 12/20/2011 1:11:13 PM PST by Cronos (Nuke Mecca and Medina now..)
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To: rhema
Frankly, with the advent of artificial insemination, something mere humans can pull off, I can't understand people still questioning the Virgin birth. It's basically an excuse to not exercise faith.
141 posted on 12/20/2011 1:27:36 PM PST by Jay Thomas (If not for my faith in Christ, I would despair.)
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To: Avalon Hussar; Cronos; UriĀ’el-2012; Religion Moderator; 1000 silverlings; Alex Murphy; bkaycee; ...
Cronos, I've got to stop you here. I can't answer directly for metmom, but I do know that in most areas the two of us agree on Biblical topics and I've never heard her reject the Virgin Birth, nor do I know of any other Protestants which do reject the Virgin Birth. That's one of the fundamentals of the Faith which all branches of Christianity agree upon.

As for your claim that Uri's group denies the Virgin Birth, where has this been claimed? I've not heard this at all.

Until Cronos can provide some solid evidence of these things that he's stating about us, it's all tilting at windmills.

Making baseless blanket statements about people based on nothing but conjecture is not debate with any kind of honesty or integrity.

My posting history is there for all to see and my position on every topic he's accused me of can be found there.

Cronos, if you can point me or anyone else to specific posts that we have made that would lead you to arrive at the *your group* kind of conclusions you keep throwing out at me and others, post them and I'll address mine specifically.

But I am not and will not engage in stupid gotcha games whose sole purpose seems to be nothing other than finding out personal information about other FReepers or providing ANYONE with the opportunity to pass judgment on the validity of my faith because it doesn't match someone else's opinion.

If you're going to base your questioning on presumptions and expect me to disprove them or concede to them, you will be having a long wait.

My refusal to engage means nothing more than the fact that I recognize bating and manipulation tactics and will not be baited or manipulated.

Matthew 5:11-12 11 "Blessed are you when others revile you and persecute you and utter all kinds of evil against you falsely on my account. 12 Rejoice and be glad, for your reward is great in heaven, for so they persecuted the prophets who were before you.

The Pharisees falsely accused Jesus as well. I can wear it as a badge of honor to be keeping His company.

So, Cronos, bug off.

142 posted on 12/20/2011 1:33:40 PM PST by metmom (For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
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To: Cronos
No gotcha games — just a question — why believe that? you ask me and other in orthodoxy about our faith, so why can’t we ask you about yours?

I will not answer any question that presumes a position I hold.

I do not recall asking any Catholic about their faith. I was born and raised a Catholic. I know all I need to about it.

143 posted on 12/20/2011 1:35:47 PM PST by metmom (For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
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To: metmom

Perversely and unnecessarily sowing discord amongst the Brothers and Sisters is harshly condemned in Scripture.


144 posted on 12/20/2011 2:31:51 PM PST by Quix (Times are a changin' INSURE you have believed in your heart & confessed Jesus as Lord Come NtheFlesh)
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To: metmom
>>I believe that since the Catholics have been told to lay off the direct questioning of people concerning their religious affiliation<<

LOL Some haven’t gotten that message. See post 20 to me. It’s their way to “fit into the little boxes” which seems to make them feel better. It’s a way to apply indiscretions of anyone one person of that “organization” to other individuals.

145 posted on 12/20/2011 3:46:09 PM PST by CynicalBear
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To: metmom

They can’t really understand that salvation isn’t contingent on “belonging” to some human organized “religion”. Cults indoctrinate into the adherents the claim that if they don’t follow “their rules” they will be damned. Belonging to the “group” is salvation in and of itself. It’s one of the more obvious signs of a true cult.


146 posted on 12/20/2011 3:51:44 PM PST by CynicalBear
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To: rhema
Mr. Kristof can call me an “intellectually backward” Christian all he wants because I could not care less what he thinks of me. I agree with the article that the virgin birth is at the very pinnacle of the Christian faith and to deny it, is to deny the Deity of Jesus Christ. Anyone who wants to reduce Christ to a mere man does so to deny his atoning death for all the world. It's no wonder that those who deny the virgin birth also deny the resurrection as well as the many miracles throughout God's dealing with mankind. Take away the Virgin Birth and you destroy Christianity.
147 posted on 12/20/2011 4:08:06 PM PST by boatbums (Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us. Titus 3:5)
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To: metmom; Cronos
Touche’ metmom! Those trying to bait others are best ignored.
148 posted on 12/20/2011 4:13:20 PM PST by count-your-change (You don't have to be brilliant, not being stupid is enough.)
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To: yefragetuwrabrumuy
This is why the divine, the unknown and the unknowable of religion are so hated, because philosophy has no such unshakable and unchanging ideas. If God says something, then it is the eternal truth. If a philosopher says something, it is just one guy’s opinion, and doesn’t change anything.

Very well said! It is the idea that "absolutes" really exist that burns their buns. God laughs in derision at them.

149 posted on 12/20/2011 4:20:01 PM PST by boatbums (Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us. Titus 3:5)
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To: Cronos
Do not make this thread "about" individual Freepers. Do not categorize believers by a Freeper's name, e.g. "metmom's group."

Discuss the issues all you want but do not make it personal.

150 posted on 12/20/2011 8:43:11 PM PST by Religion Moderator
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