Posted on 10/22/2011 1:21:35 PM PDT by NYer
Catholics get a bad rap for thinking we somehow “merit” or “earn” our own sanctification (and salvation) through “works” that we do. But that’s a misunderstanding of what the Catholic Church actually teaches. Our sanctification (our being made holy) happens only by the Grace of God. But it does require a response on our part. We must cooperate with it. This submission to and cooperation with God’s Grace, Catholics call a “work” and it takes various forms.
Some identify this response to God’s grace as a kind of “saving” or “justifying” faith (a faith that produces or is accompanied by works of conversion, hope and charity) as opposed to a “work” – something we do. Such a position is reconcilable with Catholic teaching once we understand each side’s terminology. On the other hand, I think it’s confusing to refer to this cooperation with and submission to God’s Grace as simply “faith alone” – which is one reason Catholics don’t refer to it that way (and probably one reason the Bible says we are “not” saved by “faith alone” – James 2:24).
Anyway, here Fr. Barron speaks a little bit about some of these sanctifying practices of the Church and what we mean by “Purgatory” (an extension of that sanctification) in the super-natural sense.
What the Church means by purgatory? - Watch You Tube Video
This exclusive preview clip was from CATHOLICISM, Episode X: “WORLD WITHOUT END: THE LAST THINGS”.
Explore the Church’s conviction that life here and now is preparation for an extraordinary world that is yet to come – a supernatural destiny. Father Barron presents the Catholic vision of death, judgment, heaven, hell and purgatory as he journeys to Florence, Ireland and Rome.
The vision of the Church sees beyond this world and invites us to consider a world without end. Father Barron shows how this vision is supported by the mystery and truth of the Resurrection of Jesus.
View exclusive preview clips from all episodes of the CATHOLICISM series coming out in Fall 2011.
Ask away. Once again, I do not feel compelled to respond. The readers on the thread can decide for themselves. Surely that doesn’t bother you.
It's a real fairytale you guys seem to have going...
So there are no “official” definitions of “hate” that can be read. It’s YOPIOH? So if something is declared a “hate” site, or a “hate” book, by whose standards and definitions was it declared so? And please do not feel compelled to respond. The readers on the thread can see what’s going on. Surely that doesn’t bother you.
Doesn’t bothe me at all.
Interesting subject and approach; interesting post. Thanks.
I think "hate" is too big. I think we might be able to get an objective and mutually agreeable understanding of what a "hate site" is, even if we disagreed about the application of the standard.
Unfortunately I don't feel well enough to begin, darn it.
No doubt developing that perspective requires a great deal of Scripture study over and above the amount of serious and prayerful study it must take to be led to the conclusion that those who witness for Christ are best characterized as 'clowns'.
Well, as soon as you feel well enough, BEGIN! I think it’s an interesting question and deserves an interesting thoughtful response. Seriously, I do hope you feel better soon. ;)
I’m pretty sure that only happens to Catholics posting on the thread.
Ah. Obviously you failed to read your entire post to me. It isn’t just non-Catholics who seem at odds with their counterparts. Read the Catholics responses sometime. That was the point I was getting at. It comes from BOTH sides. There is no victim here, on either side. True “witnessing for Christ” is severely lacking. Studying the Scripture even more so. I won’t go on. Read for yourself. Who is giving Scripture and who is giving traditions of men. Who is witnessing for Christ, and who is witnessing for the Church. Reading it is one thing though, admitting it is another. Have a blessed evening.
I think any resonse to your post is a colossal waste of time.
Fortunately what you think doesn’t matter. It sounds like you’ve been spending an awful lot of time at “hate” sites. You seem to be full of something..vitriol, hate, nosiness, something..Perhaps you need a YOPIOH time out. To re-adjust the attitude.
Whatver.
Thank you, dear smvoice. I’ll think about it between coughing fits.
Gang. Smvoice and others spoke about what I call playing to the gallery. Whether we mean to do so or not, the gallery is watching, even if it’s just one person.
My suspicion is that that one person takes more note of the love and defects of love in our posts than of our excellence in dialectic and rhetoric.
And we my be called to account one day for his or her salvation.
Much as a lot of dispensationalism stirkes me as cockamamie, I would be delighted to hear that some lurker gave himself to Christ because of what a dispensationalist here said.
I hope that at least some of the non-Catholics would be able to put down their disagreements with us long enough to rejoice that somebody came to IHS because of what we said.
Like it or not, we are lights — to be seen from afar and to beckon the wayfarer home. Like it or not, we are salt, called to bring out the richness of taste for him who tastes and sees that the Lord is good.
AND, like it or not, we can be bad shepherds who fatten our egos on the discomfiture of our Lord’s sheep.
So, remember to rejoice, remember to love. God is Joy and Love, and if we do not show joy and love, we do not proclaim Him.
Maybe, since this coming night seems likely to be one of coughing and interrupted sleep,when I wake I will pray that God hold us all in his hand and heart and that we, more and more, show him to one another and to those who lurk.
(Don’t worry, I only write like this when I feel bad, but am not really too sick. God bless you all.)
>>>>>>I hope that at least some of the non-Catholics would be able to put down their disagreements with us long enough to rejoice that somebody came to IHS because of what we said.
That will never happen. But let it be on them.
The Lord certainly saves, though His Paschal Sacrifice on the Cross, but it is the role of the Church to lead the flock to salvation.
[16]...flesh and blood hath not revealed it to thee, but my Father who is in heaven. [18] And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. [19] And I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose upon earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven. (Mt 16)
How so? "Every man" cannot apply to the clergy alone, nor are the church leadership the only people who build on the foundation of faith. We all do, or rather, are supposed to.
And, I ask again, is it your opinion that the clergy (however understood) go through the purgatory but other Christians do not?
Standard Protestant template the two points of which I answered meny times here. From the site:
No amount of pain and suffering on your part can remit your sins
Indeed, but sin is not being remitted in purgatory. By the time one is in purgatory his sin has been wholly pardoned atoned for and remitted. Before Protestant charlatans criticize Catholic concepts they should study them a bit.
Paul in the 3rd chapter of 1st Corinthians says nothing about a judgment that occurs at the time of ones death
First, if the passage referred to the Second Coming of Christ as the time of the purgation, we would still have the concept of Purgatory intact, nmerely its application delayed. The author of this site is then making an argument the consequences of which he himself would not accept -- see his previous point.
Secondly, I can see how "the day of the Lord" refers to the Second Coming, because indeed it is at the second coming that our deeds and the Glory of Heaven will be made manifest to all. From that it does not follow that the purgation process (as opposed to its manifestation to others) takes place at the Second Coming. Indeed, we see that after the purgation the purified soul "is saved as if through fire". This means that the soul enters Heaven at that point.
It would be interesting to see what Tim Staples responded, as this page is childish work.
Grace is not of ourselves. Both faith and good works are responses to grace.
Doing what is good is "excellent and profitable", no argument, but NOT for salvation, is it?
St James says it is for salvation ("faith did co-operate with his works; and by works faith was made perfect" Ch. 2 v 22, as is, of course the entire passage); St. Paul continues on to Titus in verse 10 to "excel in good works". Each time salvation is mentioned like in Eph 2 or Titus 3, good works are also mentioned as a necessity. Exception is Romans 4, but there the topic is necessity of circumcision, not goos works.
Paul wasn't speaking to just Jewish believers
True. He was speaking (in Galatians) to the believers who thought they had to follow the Jewish law. He nevertheless reminded them that law or no law, faith must work through love (Galatians 5:6).
what kind of "good works" are you insisting Paul taught granted salvation?
[12] Put ye on therefore, as the elect of God, holy, and beloved, the bowels of mercy, benignity, humility, modesty, patience: [13] Bearing with one another, and forgiving one another, if any have a complaint against another: even as the Lord hath forgiven you, so do you also. [14] But above all these things have charity, which is the bond of perfection: [15] And let the peace of Christ rejoice in your hearts, wherein also you are called in one body: and be ye thankful.[16] Let the word of Christ dwell in you abundantly, in all wisdom: teaching and admonishing one another in psalms, hymns, and spiritual canticles, singing in grace in your hearts to God. [17] All whatsoever you do in word or in work, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, giving thanks to God and the Father by him.
(Col 3)
Not once in that chapter is Paul talkint to the lay people. He is talking to “every man” who is a leader of some sort.
>> And, I ask again, is it your opinion that the clergy (however understood) go through the purgatory but other Christians do not?<<
Good grief. Get that purgatory think out of you head for just a minute here. When pastors or church leaders or teachers teach Christians they either teach the milk of scripture or the meat. That’s what the chapter is talking about. If a Christian is a “milk’ Christian they are not strong in the faith and when the fire of temptation comes they may fall away, “be burned up”. If they are taught the “meat” of scripture they will become strong in the faith and will endure the “fire” of temptations. The teachers will be rewarded in the hereafter according to the strength and endurance in the faith of the people they taught or pastured. The more people who they teach with the “meat” scripture who become strong enough to withstand the “fire” of temptation the more their reward will be at the throne judgment at the end of time.
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