Posted on 05/21/2011 4:46:26 AM PDT by marbren
Camping is a victim of replacement theology. IMHO the lie of replacement theology is almost as insidious as idolatry. The key to holistic understanding of Bible prophecy is to understand the role of Israel in it. God keeps his promises to Israel. This is a model to the rest of us that he will keep his promises to us as well.
A majority of the church going world has been victimized. I believed the lie for 35 years. During the past 20 I have been seeking the truth and only recently did I stop saying IMHO replacement theology is a lie and replaced it with: Replacement theology is a lie dropping the IMHO. For those that do not know, Replacement theology is the lie that the Church has replaced Israel in God’s plan.
The church was polluted by Replacement theology early on. Origen and Augustine, early Fathers of the church, were the first to muddy up the scriptures in this way when they arrogantly took on the mantle of Israel for themselves. Martin Luther apparently did not study it and this lead to his anti-Semitism and Hitler. In many ways IMHO it is like a reverse of the circumcision party that led to Acts 15.
This replacement theology lie has lead to the church we have today. Everyone is running around not knowing what is happening in these end times we are in. The truth is The Church, the Bride of Christ, has a role and Israel has a role. Think of men and women, children and parents, husbands and wives, angels and people, dogs and cats, sheep and goats, wheat and tares. All these have roles God invented.
So the solution: Open your Bible, drop your preconceived notions and open your mind, ask God to reveal the truth about all this Israel stuff written in the Bible. The Lord Jesus Christ is central in it all. Gods Grace and Mercy is incredible, He does all the work. Faith and hope and love permeate the entire Bible and the greatest of these is love.
Thanks for the pings and links!
You should investigate very thoroughly the Israel/Mary point. It is more than interesting. It is disturbing. Also, there is quite a bit in the OT (more than you may realize) that Roman Catholics try to apply to their understanding of Mary’s place in theology and worship. Their methodology is strikingly similar to that of dispensationalism’s efforts with Israel. The reason this is so has to do with Christology. Both RC’s and dispensationalists fail to appreciate the full force of Jesus’ statement that the whole of OT testifies of Him. The Old Testament is not Israel’s book, it is Christ’s.
In regard to “replacement theology,” I reject the term itself. To accept it uncritically is to accept a false framing of the issues.
In regard to God’s grace and justification, you are right. But in regard to sanctification you are not. Have you actually read Luther on the subject? I think not. Finally, if you are serious in saying Jesus Christ is everything to you and if you are serious about the study of Scripture, I would recommend that you read Martin Chemnitz’ (he is the chief author of the Formula of Concord) The Two Natures in Christ (readily available from Concordia Publishing House). It is not light reading. But you will benefit greatly from it. For the Christian all theology really is Christology.
Sort of true but we do not have to try too hard. It comes down to simple faith in Our Lord Jesus Christ. We actually rest in his arms when we surrender. His Spirit will be the one that does the study work in you, You just enjoy the ride. God is not our copilot. God is the pilot we are the passengers.
I agree he might inspire you to read a lot! You will experience Joy when you do it and want to do it, nothing will stop you. This was my experience but only you can have your experience.
The Matthew 5-7 beatitudes from the Sermon on the Mount are a good road map for justified believers. The first step is to be poor in spirit like a teachable child. Blessed are the poor in spirit. You must be justified first, however, which I assume you are because you are seeking answers. You know you need a Savior. That in fact you are a poor miserable sinner like the rest of us we are all the same. We are all beggars for grace.
“We do try some contemporary music these days. We do not always include a creed.”
Neither of these is a good idea, especially dropping the creed. If you use in its place occasionally the Te Deum Laudamus, that can be beneficial. We use it and the three ecumenical creeds, Apostles, Nicene, and Athanasian, regularly. Let’s just say its good for one’s Christology. If you know and understand well these four, you know and understand well the faith of the church fathers, and you understand that Rome does not own them. What they write always needs to be viewed in the light of the faith that was publicly confessed in their time, i.e., the creeds, not the other way around, just as what people write and say about America and its foundational principles always need to be read in the light of the Declaration of Independence and Constitution, not the other way around.
BTW It's been a while, does the Book of Concord talk much about the end times we are in? I forget.
You want to talk conservative Lutheran? My faith journey started out thinking the only people that were saved had to belong to my local LCMS church We had the truth!! I was teenager at the time.
Neither of these is a good idea, especially dropping the creed
I am just the elder. My Pastor, who has taught me Luther's concept of sanctification BTW, has developed a style of worship so I defer to him.
“A lot of pew sitting fire insurance I was baptized so I am OK testimonies.”
Well, that’s not Lutheran, is it? Such folk need a good dose of teaching on Christian vocation (calling), this is where the follow up to the Small Catechism should come in. Lutherans often, and mistakenly, think that if they have learned the Six Chief Parts of the Catechism they are done. Nothing could be farther from the truth. It never fails to amaze me that people so often miss the plain meaning of simple words. Why, for example, are these called the “chief” parts? There must be others. And indeed there are. One of the most important and practical of which is what is commonly called the “Table of Duties.” This is just a highly simplified sketch of Christian vocation, or, in other words, now that we are assured of our salvation and know that heaven is our home, what should we be busying ourselves with? These are the very things that our neighbors and the world need from us. They are the very salt and light Jesus was talking about in the sermon on the mount.
See you do agree with me.
Now some tricky questions: Do we need a personal intimate relationship with our Lord Jesus Christ? Does the Holy Spirit still work? Be warned, I enjoyed the Renewal in Missouri Movement which has now died out. I loved my RIM pastor.
Don't worry if you trash RIM I understand.
“... thinking the only people that were saved had to belong to my local LCMS church.”
It’s good to know that you came to know differently. There are many Christians in the world, real Christians ... sometimes because of what their churches teach and sometimes despite what their churches teach, and most often a combination of both. It is like the difference between a well-balanced, home-cooked meal and the number whatever combo at some local fast food restaurant. No one is saying that there is not some value in fast food. You can live a long time on fast food. But there is better and healthier food to be had (this is a not uncommon analogy in the OT and NT, minus of course the fast food twist). Churches and denominations are this way. That is why Jesus tells us to beware of false prophets. Here we should be aware that false prophets come in all varieties, some are occasional false prophets, some are unwitting false prophets, some are calculating, premeditated false prophets, some are just simply sloppy in their own spiritual care and pass that on to their hearers. We all should be aware of our diet, whether of earthly food or, especially, of heavenly.
“Now some tricky questions: Do we need a personal intimate relationship with our Lord Jesus Christ? Does the Holy Spirit still work?”
Not tricky at all. Of course you need a personal intimate relationship with your Lord. But remember, it is He who initiated it and He who sustains it. His hand touched you in baptism, and called you His own dear child. His voice tells you Sunday after Sunday (and in between if you choose to avail yourself of your pastor’s calling diligently), after you have confessed your sins, that your sins are forgiven, now go and sin no more. He is the One who gives you of His crucified and risen body and blood. How much more personal do you want? And if such things have become cold and formal in our mind and heart, it is because of our failing not His intent and will. These are the very things that Jesus was speaking of in Matthew 28:19-20: “... teaching them to observe (read: participate in) all things that I (not Moses) commanded you, and, lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.” That’s an awfully firm and personal promise. Believe Him. Do as He exhorts. He will keep His promise.
I won’t trash RIM. It has done a good enough job of that all by itself.
Must go. Duty calls.
Misuses of Sola Scriptura (Sola Scriptura Extremis (SSE)
"It is a great mistake to take the doctrine of Sola Scriptura as though it were intended to seal the Bible in a vacuum allowing no ideas in or out. The language of the Bible, the social background of the Bible, the literary background of the Bible, are all components which affect its meaning. Short of resorting to KJV Onlyism or the reckless "personal inspiration" view which prefers some imagined private relevation from some other source over the work of scholars or those better informed, there is no consistent way to reject the use of background material to aid in its interpretation. .."
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Why We Could Not and Can Not Have Inerrant Copies and Translations of the Bible
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Fields of knowledge required for proper study of the Bible
"...The genres of the Bible include narrative, poetry, proverbial literature, wisdom discourse, a treaty (that's what Deuteronomy is, believe it or not!), legal codes, genealogies, biography (that is what the Gospels are!), personal letters and general letters, rhetoric (an art form in the ancient world), riposte, and apocalyptic. Treating each one as a newspaper -- written yesterday and with our own ideas in mind -- is a mistake." bttt
Charismatic Renewal in the Lutheran Church: “Renewal In Missouri”
The only “group” I belong to are those that truly trust in Jesus as their savior and have a personal relationship with Him. Not an indirect relationship through some human organized institution or some indirect pathway to the Father through some queen of heaven or some human proclaimed “saint” as the pagans do. I belong to the group that goes directly to the Father in Jesus name as He instructed. We can be found in many different churches or no organized church at all. We place our trust in Christ alone and pray for guidance from the Holy Spirit. We don’t venerate some fallible human either dead or alive. We bow down before no image nor do we perform pagan rituals or celebrate pagan holidays.
The group I belong to is referred to as the “bride of Christ” and our names are written in the Lambs book of life.
Where exactly is that in the Bible? This is never taught from scripture, yet parroted by many. While the Bible says that (Matt. 1:21 21And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins, Acts 4:12 12Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.) Jesus is the savior, but nowhere can one make the fallacious derivation of "personal relationship" -- where is that per sola scriptura?
And does this group also include those who say that Jesus Christ is:
Is this group of those who say Jesus Christ is Lord and God?
It isn't.
[...snip...]
God is my buddy, Jesus is my friend.
The modern hymn calls Jesus a "friend" and some may appeal to a verse in John where Jesus calls his disciples "friends".
But the understanding of the word is decontextualized. People of the time of the Bible did not "get to know" each other as modern persons in the West do. A "friend" meant a person who looked out for your practical interests -- not someone you had beer and watched football with.
Even some preachers today (I am thinking of John MacArthur, but there are others) have lamented the modern view of God as a "buddy" as detracting from God's holiness. The result has been numerous corrupt theologies which see God as one who dispenses wealth like a gumball machine, and whose voice is constantly in one's head, sometimes defeating sound practice and doctrine but sometimes even just giving advice on what house to buy or what have you.
This myth is a common one perpetrated by some persons of influence listed below.
But really, even a more common view can be misleading. Many evangelists speak of a "personal relationship with Jesus". The phrase is used to mean something not too far from the "God is my buddy" idea, in essence meaning we can talk to Jesus any time, and so on.
If I had to correct this, I would say that what is required of us is a patronal relationship with Jesus. The NT explains our relationship with God in terms of a client-patron relationship, one in which God, patron, is remote; and Jesus, as a broker, mediates between ourselves and God. (I use these terms loosely; technically, in a Jewish sense, the words "suzerain" and "vassal" would be better; the point remains though that it is a relationship of mutual beneficience.)
Then we do have the indwelling Holy Spirit as a broker as well; but though the Spirit supplies us with mediation and perhaps power, there is nothing to show that the Spirit is some sort of intimate conversation partner.
Finally, since people of the ancient world seldom "got to know each other" personally (as is taken for granted in modern, Western society) there is no way that NT writers could have had an idea like a "personal relationship with Jesus" in mind in the first place -- not as we perceive it. The word "personal" is so broad in meaning that it could include a "patronal" relationship; but that is obviously not what most people have in mind when they use the word. They usually mean something like, God is approachable in the same way one of your sports buddies is.
It is not the words that are so much the issue as the particulars of expression.
Ironically, the view of God as a remote patron is the one that is most conducive to the view concerned Christians like MacArthur wish to see us return to. Perhaps then we would see a greater respect for God and His holiness, and less concern with self-fulfillment, ranging from best-selling books having titles like The Purpose-Driven Life to our most popular songs being titled, "I Can Only Imagine" (focus on experience, not on fact).
A reader recently noted a point related to this: The myth that "the purpose of coming to Christ is happiness, joy, all the feel good emotions we love (instead of forgiveness and atonement for sin)." This is tied in with such modern conceptions as use of personal testimony as the primary form of witnessing (when in the first century, it was the evidence for the resurrection and the life of Jesus that lay at the heart of evangelism) and the self-focus that makes people live as though God will not hold us accountable for our deeds.
[...snip...]
Persons who preach a model of a "personal relationship with Jesus" that defies the Bible's contextual teachings, or other sorts of pap.
By this I mean that they go with the "God is my buddy" myth described above. The Jesus they offer ends up being, as one reader puts it, "Dr. Phil with holes in his wrists." Or, they teach little or nothing of substance, offering sermons that are little more than extended pep talks or psych sessions. The motto comes from Wendy's: "Where's the BEEF?"
I break these into two categories. The first are the popular evangelists (the 3 Grahams, Palau) and the second are the popular pastors (the 2 Stanleys, Swindoll, Lucado). I regard all of these as people who have "fallen short" in terms of providing substance that offers an adequate foundation for faith, and have instead presented a model of Jesus as a "buddy" and are most likely to answer questions about things like the Gospel of Judas with a shrug and an admonition to "just have faith" or an appeal to personal testimony.
With the evangelists, the fault is not as much theirs as it is an impropriety in how evangelism is done. Evangelism in the book of Acts WAS apologetics -- it appealed to the empty tomb, the fulfillment of prophecy, the performance of miracles; eg, facts and evidence. If you hear about any of this at a modern evangelistic crusade, it is always in passing. The focus is rather on personal experience. This was illustrated for me one evening when Franklin Graham was interviewed and asked a number of questions, and each time deflected back to the same pat answer, in essence, "Well, we all need a personal relationship with Jesus Christ."
You would never know why Christ was a worthwhile authority to believe in, based on his repeated, stock answers.
With the pastors, there is a certain degree of variance. The Stanleys offer the most pablum of the four; Swindoll the least. The bottom line is that they still offer little or no solid foundation for belief. They may pay lip service to such issues as The Da Vinci Code, but it will usually amount to passing references (maybe one or two facts discussed) and a reminder to have faith.
I will credit Swindoll's ministry for at least referring people to material like Darrell Bock's on The Da Vinci Code and bringing it up in messages. Swindoll came very close to being rated a positive contributor, in my view, but that the bulk of his material is pablum ended up putting him here. ....." bttt
Thank’s — the entire non-biblical belief espoused in Cynical Bear’s post is shown in your reply on how the entire post is one of the leading myths of “God is my buddy”. Folks who believe this go the next step to believing in Dan Brown’s crap.
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