The Not So Secret Rapture

reformed.org ^ | W. Fred Rice

[topcat54]

Evangelical book catalogs promote books such as Planet Earth: The Final Chapter, The Great Escape, and the Left Behind series. Bumper stickers warn us that the vehicle’s occupants may disappear at any moment. It is clear that there is a preoccupation with the idea of a secret rapture. Perhaps this has become more pronounced recently due to the expectation of a new millennium and the fears regarding potential Y2K problems. Perhaps psychologically people are especially receptive to the idea of an imminent, secret rapture at the present time. Additionally, many Christians are not aware that any other position relative to the second coming of Jesus Christ exists. Even in Reformed circles there are numerous people reading these books. Many of these people are unaware that this viewpoint conflicts with Scripture and Reformed Theology.

[Dr. Eckleburg]

Post 2700 was not attributed anywhere.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2657209/posts?page=2747#2747

Lifting someone else’s work and posting as if it were your own work is plagerism.

[Dr. Eckleburg]

, I was simply providing an accurate quote

No, you didn't, as anyone can see from reading the post.

You added the word "only" to my statement, completely changing the meaning of the sentence.

Apparently Roman Catholics play fast and loose not only with the words of Scripture, but also the words of other FReepers.

[MarkBsnr]

Of course the Catholic church never engages in that sort of thing, right? For one thing, they don’t expel the immoral brother. They continue to eat with those who practice immorality. The even take communion from those priests, for goodness sake. And all the *anathemas* pronounced on those who disagree with Catholic pronouncements, well, that doesn’t really count I suppose.

None of your elders or clerics or whatever witch doctors you have are without sin?

[Dr. Eckleburg]

lol. Roman Catholics equate "shake the dust off your feet" to "burning at the stake?"

That idiocy would be hilarious if it weren't for the fact Rome has lived out that lie by slaughtering hundreds of thousands of Christians.

Any corrupted rationalization will do for murdering those who disagree with Rome.

[kosta50]

[Dr. E: If a man commits murder and never repents, he wasn't saved in the first place]

Cronos: This is what the OP beleives: that man can never lose his salvation...

The argument that unless a sinner repents he "wasn't saved in the first place" is sophism. Protestants believe that, even though not yet perfected in this life (i.e. continue to sin and fail to repent for it immediately) they are nevertheless assured of their salvation simply by virtue of their faith, not deeds.

Let's, then, take your average Joe Protestant, who in his heart believes in Jesus, but who in his lifetime committed numerous sins and repented of some, but not all because he is not yet perfected, who dies before he had a chance to be perfected, and therefore leaves this world without having repented of all his sins. Is he saved? According to Dr. E, he is not.

But every Protestant I ever met was absolutely sure he or she was "saved!" They can't both be right...

[MarkBsnr]

But Catholics claim that THEY have the one true and apostolic church and must be viewed from the standpoint of their claims about themselves. If there are Protestants justifying similar acts I would respond in the same way. Why didn't you address these as well?

I thought I did.

Wrong is wrong. Individual men have been wrong from the beginning. Peter was wrong to deny Jesus. Judas was wrong for betraying Christ. Thomas was wrong for doubting Him. The whole band except for Peter was wrong for doubting Him in walking on the water, but even then Peter eventually failed.

It does not make the institution wrong; it makes the individual acts of individual men wrong.

[Quix]

". . . And how are you going to indicate how representative of 1.2 billion plus people across the world a sample in some hollow of the United States would be. . . . "

More gross distortions from the Vatican AIWSOTARM edifice.

I already noted more than once that stretching the solid stats from many representative samples ALL ACROSS THE USA [not just a hollow, as intimated],

Was a huge extrapolation. That was written as a tweak to hopefully provoke some candid RC's to dig up global statistics.

Obviously, quite understandably, if there are such, the deluded of the Vatican Alice In Wonderland School Of Theology And Reality Mangling are quite allergic to presenting OR discussing such global statistics. Those regarding the USA are quite horrid enough to keep them with their thumbs in their mouths--except to throw out absurdly outrageous asides trying desperately to derisively dismiss the solid statistics presented.

When will they ever learn.

Those straw dogs won't hunt.

IT IS QUITE COMFORTING, HOWEVER, to see them keep bringing a nearly dry tiny water pistol to a firehose fight.

[MarkBsnr]

Post 67:Wesley preached the Gospel of Satan.

Wesley preached a much more loving New Testament God than anything that a rigid Calvinist ever preached.

[Cronos]

1.this is what the LCMS site says

The LCMS does not believe that Scripture teaches a predestination to damnation: God desires all to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth (1 Tim. 2:3-4).

2. you give us a http://reasonablechristian.blogspot.com BLOG as proof for what Anglicans believe??

do you think that these OrthodoPresbyterianC beliefs are true?

Comments like these from the OPC website

Arminianism is indeed a heresy,....

The Bible teaches that Christ did his atoning work on behalf of his elect people, and no others.....

Since the teachings of Arminianism are contrary to Scripture, they are manifestly false. They are serious perversions of the gospel of Jesus Christ.

Are Arminian preachers heretics? In a sense, yes,

Is Arminianism a damnable heresy? Yes.

Arminians = Methodists, Pentecostals, some Baptists. So, as an OPCer, do you agree to this OPC belief that all Methodists, Pentecostals etc. are damnable heretics?

[Dr. Eckleburg]

Protestants believe that, even though not yet perfected in this life (i.e. continue to sin and fail to repent for it immediately) they are nevertheless assured of their salvation simply by virtue of their faith, not deeds

Nope. If a person is saved, we are assured in Scripture that the fruit of the Holy Spirit will follow. Therefore, repentance is not a work of our own doing, but a desire and ability given by God to those whom Christ leads home.

Let's, then, take your average Joe Protestant, who in his heart believes in Jesus, but who in his lifetime committed numerous sins and repented of some, but not all because he is not yet perfected, who dies before he had a chance to be perfected, and therefore leaves this world without having repented of all his sins. Is he saved? According to Dr. E, he is not.

No one is "perfected" on earth. All men sin until the day they die. The EO and RCC have that all wrong.

Christ was the only perfect man on earth.

Again, anyone can say they are a Christian. You said it for years, right? But apparently you were not given perseverance to the end. At least that's how it looks today. God willing, He will bring you back to Him. None of us knows for sure about anyone else until their death. If they repented of their sins and believed in Christ with their last breathe, then Scripture tells us they were saved.

If not, then not.

[Cronos]

Which Cabal? I just told the Pentecostals what you Presbyterians really think of them

This is what the Presbyterians think of Pentecostals:

Gamecock:
"This goes to what the Reformers taught; that is the "enthusiasts" or what we call today Pentecostals, are really no different from the Roman Catholics."

[Cronos]

How come you don't react to a Presbyterian saying that This goes to what the Reformers taught; that is the "enthusiasts" or what we call today Pentecostals, are really no different from the Roman Catholics

It's pretty obvious what they think of you and other Pentecostals

They've also said on their official websites that Pentecostals follow a damnable heresy, that Pentecostal preachers are heretics, that belief in speaking in tongues, miracles etc. "is a result of a failure to grasp the Biblical teaching concerning the history of salvation"

[Dr. Eckleburg]

Thanks for providing evidence that the liberal church teaching of free will has infected the Lutherans, too, in contradiction to what Martin Luther taught from Scripture.

[aruanan]

No, you didn't, as anyone can see from reading the post.

You added the word "only" to my statement, completely changing the meaning of the sentence.

Apparently Roman Catholics play fast and loose not only with the words of Scripture, but also the words of other FReepers.

Again, you're failing to read with care.

I didn't add the word "only" to your statement, I was quoting your entire response in which you had quoted the statement that had the word "only" in it.

[MarkBsnr]

I gave you Martin Luther’s writings on predestination.

For which I am duly thankful. The only problem with your position is that this is from the Reformed early Anglican position. Not the Lutheran one. I am not aware of any Calvinist Lutherans. I am aware of the Calvinist Anglican, especially in terms of English and American history. The Reformed Methodists are theologically to the left of both, which is saying something. Pentecostals really are a free for all in terms of individual beliefs, so it would not surprise me to see a handful of Reformed Pentecostals.

It does not however, deter from the fact that strict Calvinist - is the PCA still considered Calvinist now they are changing their practices? - sects consider Pentecostals in a broad brush swipe to be heretical.

[Cronos]

Not only that -- you've got the links in the post above by aruanan of how the Presbyterians think that:

1. Calvinism = Protestantism

2. Calvinism = Christianity.

At the same time they call Pentecostals etc. who disagree with Calvin's dire God, they call you Pentecostals as heretics, as misled and they reveal that they consider Pentecostals no different than Catholics.

The Presbyterians have shown that they will attack Pentecostals etc. at the first opportunity they get -- right now they use the Pentecostals as usefull tools to fight orthodoxy, tomorrow they turn on you Pentecostals.

[MarkBsnr]

Read Augustine’s “Treatise on the Predestination of the Saints.” It’s free online. This perspective was church doctrine until the Roman church asserted itself over all other churches.

Augustine's perspective was on single predestination of certain individuals. And the Church was in existance for 350 years or so before he wrote it. No assertion necessary.

Thankfully, the Reformation recovered the truth of Christ risen.

What? Was it hidden in a Dominican trunk somewhere and Calvin fetched it out? The Reformation was a complete innovation and did not resemble Christianity in any way, shape or form.

[Dr. Eckleburg]

The only problem with your position is that this is from the Reformed early Anglican position. Not the Lutheran one.

Apparently you're ignorant of the fact that the 39 Articles are the Anglican confession, which I posted.

This isn't the first time a Roman Catholic has used terms he clearly doesn't understand. Do Roman Catholics even read other people's posts? How about their own posts?

[Cronos]

Dr. Eck: Thanks for providing evidence that the liberal church teaching of free will has infected the Lutherans, too, in contradiction to what Martin Luther taught from Scripture.

ooh... I posted that (The LCMS does not believe that Scripture teaches a predestination to damnation: God desires all to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth (1 Tim. 2:3-4).) from the LCMS website -- do you think because of their beliefs that the Lutheran LCMS and WELS are 'infected by the liberal church'?

You, Dr. E also said For example, (some) Lutherans, Pentecostals, Methodists do not believe in double-predestination. --> which Lutherans or Pentecostals DO believe in double-predestination?

[MarkBsnr]

But isn’t that exactly what is being done here, “telling who is actually condemned to hell”? Those who die in a state of mortal sin?

We do not say that these people are in a state of sin: we say that we believe that they are not Christian based upon what we believe that they are saying or doing and expel them from Christian brotherhood. We do not and cannot Judge them. Excommunication is not a sentence to hell - it is a Pauline expulsion from the Christian community.

If I misunderstand either your statement or the Catechism, please inform how so.

Because you indicate that the Church passes eternal Judgement. It does not and cannot. It can only operate temporally based upon the individual's actions and communications.