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When Do Protestants Know When to Return to Rome?
TheSacredPage.com ^ | November 1, 2010 | Michael Barber/Bryan Cross

Posted on 11/03/2010 4:33:54 PM PDT by Salvation

When Do Protestants Know When to Return to Rome?

There's a provocative piece up by Bryan Cross on the blog "Called to Communion". The opening grabbed my attention.

“So we stand here and with open mouth stare heavenward and invent still other keys. Yet Christ says very clearly in Matthew 16:19 that He will give the keys to Peter. He does not say He has two kinds of keys, but He gives to Peter the keys He Himself has, and no others. It is as if He were saying: why are you staring heavenward in search of the keys? Do you not understand I gave them to Peter? They are indeed the keys of Heaven, but they are not found in Heaven. I left them on earth. Don’t look for them in Heaven or anywhere else except in Peter’s mouth where I have placed them. Peter’s mouth is My mouth, and his tongue is My key case. His office is My office, his binding and loosing are My binding and loosing.” – Martin Luther [1]
The article goes on. . .
Last year on Reformation Day we posted a sermon by Stanley Hauerwas on that very subject. A short time later I was sitting in a living room, talking with a life-long Protestant about the Catholic Church. This gentleman was doing most of the talking, and I was mostly listening, trying to understand him and his point of view more accurately. At one point he said, “You know, I have a lot of respect for the Catholic Church, and for Catholics. They are good people, and they do a lot of good for our community. But the one thing that I find offensive about the Catholic Church is the arrogance of its claim to be the Church that Christ founded.”

The arrogance question aside, this gentleman was more informed about the Catholic Church’s claims about herself than are most people. In my experience most Protestants are unaware of the Catholic Church’s claim to be the Church that Christ founded, the very Church referred to in Matthew 16 where Jesus changed Simon’s name to ‘Peter,’ said to him, “Upon this rock I will build my Church,” and gave to him the keys of the Kingdom. From my experience, most Protestants suppose that the Catholic Church thinks of herself as just another Christian denomination. Upon learning that the Catholic Church claims to be the one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church that Christ founded, they are utterly surprised and in some cases offended.[2] For example, when Responsa ad quaestiones was released in the summer of 2007, some Protestants were surprised by its contents, and others were offended by it.3

One reason for their taking offense is that many do not know that the Catholic Church has always believed and professed that she is the one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church that Christ founded, and that any church or denomination or individual who is not in full communion with her is to some degree separated from the Church that Christ founded. For them, this teaching seemingly implies that non-Catholics are ‘second-class citizens,’ when from their own point of view they are no less united to Christ’s Church than are Catholics. So their taking offense is understandable.

But typically those who find the Church’s claim offensive do so not because they have researched the history of the Catholic Church and concluded that it began at some point later than the events recorded in Acts 2, but because they have a qualitatively different conception of what the Church is. Theologically they oppose the very notion that some communion or institution is the one that Christ founded, referring to such a notion as ‘sectarian’ or ‘sectarianism.’ From their point of view, all those who love Jesus are equally members of the Church that Christ founded. They do not believe that Christ through His Apostles gave charge of His Church to an hierarchy of bishops in a perpetual line of succession having an essential unity that is essentially visible. In their view, the Church Christ founded is fundamentally an invisible union of all those who love Jesus, no matter what their denomination or tradition. From that point of view, the claim by one institution to be the Church that Christ founded can be offensive.[4]

Some Protestants who know of the Catholic Church’s claim to be the Church that Christ founded are not offended by this claim. They are not offended by it, because they remember Protestantism’s historical origin in the Catholic Church. They remember that in the minds of the first Protestants, the intention was not to separate from the Catholic Church, but to reform the Catholic Church. For these first Protestants, their resulting separation from the Catholic Church was a kind of ‘necessary evil,’ not intended to create one or many schisms from the Church, but to bring needed moral and doctrinal reform to the very same Church that Christ had founded. In the minds of those first Protestants, this separation was to persist only until the Catholic Church was sufficiently reformed, so that they could return to full communion with her. The present-day Protestants who remember this obviously do not believe that the Catholic Church is infallible; that is why they believe that they can justifiably be separated from her. But they do believe that the Catholic Church from which they are visibly separated is (or has the best claim to being the visible continuation of) the Church that Christ founded, and they look to be reunited to her as soon as she is sufficiently reformed.[5]
The article is thought provoking. I hope you will go and read it in its entirety.

NOTES
[1] The Keys, in Conrad Bergendoff, ed. trans. Earl Beyer and Conrad Bergendoff, Luthers Works, vol 40, Philadelphia: Fortress, 1958, pp. 365-366.
[2] For the Catholic Church’s claim about herself, see Mystici Corporis Christi (1943), Lumen Gentium (1964), Dominus Iesus (2000), and Responsa ad quaestiones (2007).
[3] See here for some examples.
[4] See our article titled, “Christ Founded a Visible Church.” The notion that any institution’s claim to be the Church that Christ founded is sectarian is the ecclesial equivalent of the Christological claim that any man’s claim to be the Son of God is divisive and arrogantly exclusivist. See my post titled, “Among You Stands One Whom You Do Not Know.”
[5] This stands in contrast with the branch theory of the Church with no visible principle of unity. According to such a theory, there is no such thing as schism from the Church; all ‘schisms’ are eo ipso branches of the Church, and there is no objective touchstone for distinguishing between schisms from the Church and branches within the Church. The criterion for determining whether some community of persons is a branch within or a schism from the Church is sufficient conformity to one’s own interpretation of Scripture. A Protestant holding to this branch theory does not view himself to be in any sense or degree separated from the one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church Christ founded, but rather sees himself as a member of one of many legitimate branches of the one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church Christ founded. If the Church is conceived as a set of branches with no objective principle of unity, nothing requires that the branches be visibly, doctrinally, or sacramentally united, and so the perpetual separation of the branches is acceptable by default. In this way, the branch theory ‘defines schism down,’ making it seem to be something morally and theologically acceptable. With a simple semantic sleight of hand, schisms from the Church are defined away, wiped from the conceptual horizon and hence no longer perceived as something to be opposed and overcome by all those who love Christ and seek the full visible unity of all Christians. See my post titled, “Branches or Schisms?
 


TOPICS: Apologetics; Catholic; History; Theology
KEYWORDS: catholic; catholicchurch; catholiclist; freformed
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To: evangmlw

I have a question....are todays Baptists are part of the World Counsel of Churches?


201 posted on 11/04/2010 8:25:32 PM PDT by caww
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To: evangmlw

I have a question....are todays Baptists part of the World Counsel of Churches?


202 posted on 11/04/2010 8:25:46 PM PDT by caww
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To: CynicalBear

**I’ll choose Grace.**

The word ‘grace’ is thrown around as though no response by the potential convert is even needed at all.

You at least believe that one must confess with the mouth. If they don’t do that, are they lost? So the mouth muscles have to move, but the others don’t (as in water baptism). Unless the evangelist invites himself into the potential convert’s home, a fair amount of physical effort is involved in being saved.

The Lord commanded baptism. Paul said in Rom. 6:17, “But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but have OBEYED from the heart that form of DOCTRINE which was delivered you.”

People are told by blind leaders that “Jesus did it all for you”; completely resisting the Lord’s words of instruction on how to have remission of sins. The Christ’s sacrifice satisfied the Father’s requirement for atonement for sin. But for the individual, that blood is not applied until that individual is ‘buried with him’ (thus the reason that the Lord commanded baptism; and that Peter said it was for the remission of sins).


203 posted on 11/04/2010 8:48:17 PM PDT by Zuriel (Acts 2:38,39....nearly 2,000 years and still working today!)
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To: Quix
When Do Protestants Know When to Return to Rome?

What are we, swallows returning to Capistrano?!?

Be careful what you wish for, Rome..

"Oh, look, deacon, the swallows are returning...How beautiful they are, flying in their V-formation...V for Vatican, that is...ah-hahaha...humm...Uh...oh....no...! Run and do NOT look up, brothers...quick, someone cover the statues...."

204 posted on 11/04/2010 8:49:37 PM PDT by smvoice (Defending the Indefensible: The Pride of a Pawn.)
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To: BenKenobi
If group A has a bible, and group B has a bible, and they both say different things, how will they ever reconcile?

That is only a problem if both groups have been fooled into believing they are inspired by the Holy Spirit. Otherwise, they will look to the Fathers and Doctors for guidance and thereby achieve consensus.

205 posted on 11/04/2010 8:57:31 PM PDT by mas cerveza por favor
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To: evangmlw
We Baptists will never join your ranks. We have our heritage in one John the Baptist, who pointed us to Christ. We were before you and the protestants. We still preaching repentance and immersion.

Was there a gap between John the Baptist and his next historically traceable successor? If so, the legitimacy Baptist confession is not historically verifiable and depends entirely upon subjective interpretation of the (Catholic) Bible.

206 posted on 11/04/2010 9:02:09 PM PDT by mas cerveza por favor
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To: Rome2000

How about this: Imagine Pfleger.


207 posted on 11/04/2010 9:03:18 PM PDT by ducdriver (judica me, Deus, et discerne causam meam de gente non sancta. (Ps. 42))
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To: caww

Absolutely not, if they joined, I would leave.


208 posted on 11/04/2010 9:04:16 PM PDT by evangmlw
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To: caww

Absolutely not, if they joined, I would leave.


209 posted on 11/04/2010 9:04:45 PM PDT by evangmlw
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To: Quix
Below are the examples of exalting other deities. ...White washing it with magicsterical diplospeak doesn't change the facts. Rationalizing it with 101 weasel words doesn't change the facts."

All of this is nothing but insulting.

"p32 4 - She became Queen of Purgatory, where she exercises her power as mediatrix in behalf of these suffering souls."

"5 - She became Queen of us sinners, to assist us through the dangers of this life and to help us in difficulties."

Both of these are referring to Mary's love and merciful nature. Consider when you were young, and did something bad, and your father rightly and justly decided to punish you. Then your mother interceded on your behalf even though you didn't deserve any help.

"p37 Sacred Heart of Jesus, Thy kingdom come; Thy kingdom come through Mary! --Partial Indulgence"

Not exclusively through Mary. This is a reference to the help Mary provides for us. Many sinners can be saved through Her kind intercession, hence Christ's Kingdom is increased through Her. Duh.

Of course, you have posted much more. But I have not the time to refute all your thrusts. Sufficient to say, Catholics DO NOT worship Mary, The Saints, or anyone except The Holy Trinity. We honor Mary, as God has seen fit to honor Her.

yours IS watered down Christianity. Facts are facts, whether you like them or not. Open yourself to the truth and join the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church!

And one thing for ALL of us to remember. Christ said, "Faith, hope and charity, and the greatest of these is charity."

It is easy to get wrapped up in the argument, and really begin to get PO'd at the opposition. Let us bear Christ's words in mind.

I will pray for your conversion to The One True Church, The Holy Catholic Church.

210 posted on 11/04/2010 9:07:16 PM PDT by Celtic Cross (I AM the Impeccable Hat.)
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To: ducdriver

Pfleger is a disgrace. And remember...For every Pfleger type loon, there are 5 good, kind, hard-working priests. Pfleger is the exception, not the rule.


211 posted on 11/04/2010 9:10:28 PM PDT by Celtic Cross (I AM the Impeccable Hat.)
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To: mas cerveza por favor

The traceable successors were the scattered remants who refused to bow to apostate Catholicism, who severely persecuted and slaughtered those mercilessly who refused to bow to the dictatorial apostasy. God’s always had a remant who refused to bow to Balaam and Nimrod. The days of the early church are no different. Some refused to bow and defile themselves when most bowed to the great apostasy.


212 posted on 11/04/2010 9:10:55 PM PDT by evangmlw
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To: Quix

Yup, not watered-down, simply defiled, rotten, and putrid. It stinks in the nostrils of God. It’s adding and taking away from His Word is what it is. The result is damnation upon those who promote it and believe it.
http://www.rockycreekbaptist.org


213 posted on 11/04/2010 9:15:39 PM PDT by evangmlw
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To: evangmlw

Thanks...so would I if i attended a Baptist church...am thinking about visiting one.


214 posted on 11/04/2010 9:17:38 PM PDT by caww
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To: Celtic Cross

Well, yes, that is the point...imagine him following his bishop.

I would say for every Pfleger there are thousands of good faithful priests. I see him as an aberration that has not been dealt with. Unfortunately.


215 posted on 11/04/2010 9:18:29 PM PDT by ducdriver (judica me, Deus, et discerne causam meam de gente non sancta. (Ps. 42))
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To: mas cerveza por favor

we don’t believe in succession, but in an individual personal relationship with Jesus Christ. Although, I’m a member of a local church, my salvation is not in the church, I don’t need the church to be saved.


216 posted on 11/04/2010 9:19:22 PM PDT by evangmlw
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To: BenKenobi
Can the Lutheran church argue that they were established by Christ himself?

Well certainly they can/could...And it would make a lot more sense than when your religion does it...But that wouldn't make it so any more for the Lutherans than it does for your religion...

Catholics are not Christians...Anglicans are not Christians...Baptists are not Christians...

There are however, Christians who are Baptist, Anglican and Catholic...

217 posted on 11/04/2010 10:14:57 PM PDT by Iscool (I don't understand all that I know...)
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To: evangmlw

St. Paul says you must give reason for what you believe. The Bible does not speak of two or more individuals having a personal relationship with Christ with belief systems that conflict. Such inconsistency does not make logical sense. There can only one true faith. Do you see this? The Catholic Church claims to represent that faith and proves it by solid historical evidence. The Church is something real, not just an idea.


218 posted on 11/04/2010 10:20:22 PM PDT by mas cerveza por favor
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To: mamelukesabre

YUP.

Good analogy.


219 posted on 11/04/2010 11:05:04 PM PDT by Quix (Times are a changin' INSURE you have believed in your heart & confessed Jesus as Lord Come NtheFlesh)
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To: smvoice

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm


220 posted on 11/04/2010 11:06:55 PM PDT by Quix (Times are a changin' INSURE you have believed in your heart & confessed Jesus as Lord Come NtheFlesh)
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