Follow me to freedom !!!
Posted on 10/10/2009 11:10:58 AM PDT by bogusname
[[It’s all part of the definition war.]]
That’s exactly what it is- their ammo is so lacking, that their only recourse is symantics and quibblings about irrelevent issues- instead of addressing the actual science, they get into symantics wars- We’re up to 100 posts now, and I’ve not seen one evo address the topic of hte article per usual- all they can do is misrepresent what creation science is all about, and falsley claim that ICR said somethign that they didn’t- it’s like another poster who keeps tryign to indict all Christians by guilt by association for ‘not beleiving Catholics are saved’ when the FACT is that Christians DO acknowledge soem catholics are ifnact saved- that they have taken the step of salvation that the bible talks about, but remain in an institution that preaches salvation by works (note, NOT all catholic churches teach salvation by works, soem actually DO preach salvation by Christ alone) but because Christians point out the error in doctrine of Catholicism as a whole, then by golly, Christians must apparently think all catholics are unsaved accordign to some posters who yell and scream that ‘Christians don’t get to determien who is and who isn’t saved’ but turns aroudn and determines what Christians must think if they point out doctrinal error- it just never ends with these folks
Exactly what was found if not “soft tissues/blood vessels”?
What was found that could be sequenced?
Bzzzzt- wrong- I just read the whole thing, and the closest you can coem to claimign what you claim was that paragraph you cited which has absolutely NOTHING to do with condemning anyone to hell who beleives in evolution- You are confused- and worse yet, you are falsely accusing ICR of somethign they did NOT say- but of course- you’ll continue denying this- but those who go to the site will clearly see what you’re trying to do
Thanks for the ping but for the most part I’ll stay away from this thread.
“Those who reject Him, however, or who neglect to believe on Him, thereby continue in their state of rebellion and must ultimately be consigned to the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels.”
Sounds like 20th chapter of Revelation so not anything unusual there.
Good grief. How can anyone continue to misrepresent creationists with you around?
You need to stop posting facts and messing with their minds.
It was a full 24 posts before any evo even posted anything that could be considered a response to the topic of the thread.
And here we are, almost a hundred posts later, and you’re trying to get the thread back on topic with an evo.
Good luck with that.
;)
It kind of makes you wonder why the evos complain so much about not being able to have any decent debates about science on crevo threads, when they’re the worst offenders for getting them off track and into religious doctrine wars.
“You are confused- and worse yet, you are falsely accusing ICR of somethign they did NOT say- but of course- you’ll continue denying this- but those who go to the site will clearly see what you’re trying to do”
I posted a direct link to their tenets. The context is clear and not confusing as you state. They very clearly state the consequences for failing to believe what they state are their foundational principles.
It’s not ambiguous. But folks can read and decide for themselves - I am confident that they will see the same thing I do, if you do not believe in creationism, you are not believing in the Bible and you are going to hell.
If you have a specific point to argue, please do so. I’ve posted a complete link to their site. Please argue a cogent point, or sit back and let others do so.
“If you wish to comment on what the folks at ICR believe they offer this statement, amongst others, under the heading of,...guess what....”What We Believe”:”
Oh, so I should ignore the “foundational tenets” that are also posted at their site?
This Biblical literalism is so confusing. One second, I’m supposed to take the Bible literally, and then the next, I’m not supposed to take what they say, quoted from the Bible, literally.
I stand by the statement, backed by the ICR’s own fundamental tenets - if you disagree with them, you are going to hell.
I stand by the statement that their research is at best completely wrong, and more likely, a garden-variety lie, intent on deception.
“Exactly what was found if not “soft tissues/blood vessels”?
What was found that could be sequenced?”
Possible fossilized soft tissues/blood vessels.
They claimed to have found “collagen” but there was some issue as to sample contamination.
There is plenty more research to go here, but the claim that they found “soft tissue” is incorrect.
“Tenets of Scientific Creationism
1.The physical universe of space, time, matter and energy has not always existed, but was supernaturally created by a transcendent personal Creator who alone has existed from eternity.
2.The phenomenon of biological life did not develop by natural processes from inanimate systems but was specially and supernaturally created by the Creator.
3.Each of the major kinds of plants and animals was created functionally complete from the beginning and did not evolve from some other kind of organism. Changes in basic kinds since their first creation are limited to “horizontal” changes (variations) within the kinds, or “downward” changes (e.g., harmful mutations, extinctions).
4.The first human beings did not evolve from an animal ancestry, but were specially created in fully human form from the start. Furthermore, the “spiritual” nature of man (self-image, moral consciousness, abstract reasoning, language, will, religious nature, etc.) is itself a supernaturally created entity distinct from mere biological life.
5.Earth pre-history, as preserved especially in the crustal rocks and fossil deposits, is primarily a record of catastrophic intensities of natural processes, operating largely within uniform natural laws, rather than one of uniformitarian process rates. There is therefore no a priori reason for not considering the many scientific evidences for a relatively recent creation of the earth and the universe, in addition to the scientific evidences that most of the earth's fossiliferous sediments were formed in an even more recent global hydraulic cataclysm.
6.Processes today operate primarily within fixed natural laws and relatively uniform process rates. Since these were themselves originally created and are daily maintained by their Creator, however, there is always the possibility of miraculous intervention in these laws or processes by their Creator. Evidences for such intervention must be scrutinized critically, however, because there must be clear and adequate reason for any such action on the part of the Creator.
7.The universe and life have somehow been impaired since the completion of creation, so that imperfections in structure, disease, aging, extinctions and other such phenomena are the result of “negative” changes in properties and processes occurring in an originally perfect created order.
8.Since the universe and its primary components were created perfect for their purposes in the beginning by a competent and volitional Creator, and since the Creator does remain active in this now-decaying creation, there does exist ultimate purpose and meaning in the universe. Teleological considerations, therefore, are appropriate in scientific studies whenever they are consistent with the actual data of observation, and it is reasonable to assume that the creation presently awaits the consummation of the Creator's purpose.
9.Although people are finite and scientific data concerning origins are always circumstantial and incomplete, the human mind (if open to the possibility of creation) is able to explore the manifestation of that Creator rationally and scientifically, and to reach an intelligent decision regarding one’s place in the Creator's plan.
Tenets of Biblical Creationism
1.The Creator of the universe is a triune God—Father, Son and Holy Spirit. There is only one eternal and transcendent God, the source of all being and meaning, and He exists in three Persons, each of whom participated in the work of creation.
2.The Bible, consisting of the thirty-nine canonical books of the Old Testament and the twenty-seven canonical books of the New Testament, is the divinely-inspired revelation of the Creator to man. Its unique, plenary, verbal inspiration guarantees that these writings, as originally and miraculously given, are infallible and completely authoritative on all matters with which they deal, free from error of any sort, scientific and historical as well as moral and theological.
3.All things in the universe were created and made by God in the six literal days of the creation week described in Genesis 1:1-2:3, and confirmed in Exodus 20:8-11. The creation record is factual, historical and perspicuous; thus all theories of origins or development which involve evolution in any form are false. All things which now exist are sustained and ordered by God's providential care. However, a part of the spiritual creation, Satan and his angels, rebelled against God after the creation and are attempting to thwart His divine purposes in creation.
4.The first human beings, Adam and Eve, were specially created by God, and all other men and women are their descendants. In Adam, mankind was instructed to exercise “dominion” over all other created organisms, and over the earth itself (an implicit commission for true science, technology, commerce, fine art, and education) but the temptation by Satan and the entrance of sin brought God's curse on that dominion and on mankind, culminating in death and separation from God as the natural and proper consequence.
5.The Biblical record of primeval earth history in Genesis 1-11 is fully historical and perspicuous, including the creation and fall of man, the curse on the creation and its subjection to the bondage of decay, the promised Redeemer, the worldwide cataclysmic deluge in the days of Noah, the post-diluvian renewal of man's commission to subdue the earth (now augmented by the institution of human government) and the origin of nations and languages at the tower of Babel.
6.The alienation of man from his Creator because of sin can only be remedied by the Creator Himself, who became man in the person of the Lord Jesus Christ, through miraculous conception and virgin birth. In Christ were indissolubly united perfect sinless humanity and full deity, so that His substitutionary death is the only necessary and sufficient price of man's redemption. That the redemption was completely efficacious is assured by His bodily resurrection from the dead and ascension into heaven; the resurrection of Christ is thus the focal point of history, assuring the consummation of God's purposes in creation.
7.The final restoration of creation's perfection is yet future, but individuals can immediately be restored to fellowship with their Creator, on the basis of His redemptive work on their behalf, receiving forgiveness and eternal life solely through personal trust in the Lord Jesus Christ, accepting Him not only as estranged Creator but also as reconciling Redeemer and coming King. Those who reject Him, however, or who neglect to believe on Him, thereby continue in their state of rebellion and must ultimately be consigned to the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
8.The eventual accomplishment of God's eternal purposes in creation, with the removal of His curse and the restoration of all things to divine perfection, will take place at the personal bodily return to the earth of Jesus Christ to judge and purge sin and to establish His eternal kingdom.
9.Each believer should participate in the “ministry of reconciliations by seeking both to bring individuals back to God in Christ (the “Great Commission”) and to “subdue the earth” for God's glory (the Edenic-Noahic Commission). The three institutions established by the Creator for the implementation of His purposes in this world (home, government, church) should be honored and supported as such.
Even though the tenets of scientific creationism can be expounded quite independently of the tenets of Biblical creationism, the two systems are completely compatible. All the genuine facts of science support Biblical creationism and all statements in the Bible are consistent with scientific creationism. Either system can be taught independently of the other or the two can be taught concurrently, as the individual situation may warrant.
REFERENCES
1 See Scientific Creationism, ed. Henry M. Morris (San Diego: C.L.P. Publishers, 1974), p. 12.
2 These tenets have recently been adopted by the staff of the Institute for Creation Research and incorporated permanently in its By-Laws.
*Dr. Henry M. Morris is the Founder and President Emeritus of the Institute for Creation Research.0
So if there are some other “tenets” that I'm overlooking please point them out to me, I do tend to miss things so feel free to do so, I'll not take offense.
When an article is posted and the gripes about the author, the subject, the forum, everything but what the article actually deals with become the whole of the thread, it kind of leaves me without much to say.
“It kind of makes you wonder why the evos complain so much about not being able to have any decent debates about science on crevo threads, when they’re the worst offenders for getting them off track and into religious doctrine wars.”
Evolution is accepted, from what i see, in the same way as religion is and so I think it is justifiably called such. It has it's saints and doctrine and claims to provide a way to “truth”, therefore its luminaries can countenance no rivalry from other gods, particularly those of the “unscientific”. ‘If your science is suspect, so is your God’ as it were.
Carl Sagan thought a “benign and indifferent God” was possible, Gould, though an atheist, thought religion had its place and should stay there on the reservation, Lewontin said no Divine Foot could be allowed in the door, etc. so inevitable religion must come into the discussion just as these fellows recognized when the “big questions” of life are weighed.
It’s exactly the evo reaction to religion that demonstrates the point.
They are reacting as any other religion would to challenges to their dogma.
Yes, that is the content at the link I previously posted.
I think everybody gets it by now...if you want to rub your own nose in it, why not just change your name or put it in your tagline?
“Evolution is accepted, from what i see, in the same way as religion is and so I think it is justifiably called such.”
Prove this.
See, you can be trained. Good kitty.
“They are reacting as any other religion would to challenges to their dogma.”
What do you think about the dogma of the ICR? Do you think it should be challenged?
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