Posted on 05/09/2009 1:36:29 PM PDT by greyfoxx39
Sunday afternoon session, October 5, 1975
Boyd K. Packer, “The Redemption of the Dead,” Ensign, Nov. 1975, 97
I have reason, my brother and sisters, to feel very deeply about the subject that I have chosen for today, and to feel more than the usual need for your sustaining prayers, because of its very sacred nature.
When the Lord was upon the earth He made it very clear that there was one way, and one way only, by which man may be saved. “I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.” (John 14:6.) To proceed on that way, these two things emerge as being very fixed. First, in His name rests the authority to secure the salvation of mankind. “For there is none other name under heaven given … whereby we must be saved.” (Acts 4:12.) And next, there is an essential ordinance—baptism—standing as a gate through which every soul must pass to obtain eternal life.
The Lord was neither hesitant nor was He apologetic in proclaiming exclusive authority over those processes, all of them in total, by which we may return to the presence of our Heavenly Father. This ideal was clear in the minds of His apostles also, and their preaching provided for one way, and one way only, for men to save themselves.
Over the centuries men saw that many, indeed most, never found that way. This became very hard to explain. Perhaps they thought it to be generous to admit that there are other ways. So they tempered or tampered with the doctrine.
This rigid emphasis on “one Lord and one baptism,” was thought to be too restrictive, and too exclusive, even though the Lord Himself had described it as being narrow, for, “Strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life.” (Matt. 7:14.)
Since baptism is essential there must be an urgent concern to carry the message of the gospel of Jesus Christ to every nation, kindred, tongue, and people. That came as a commandment from Him.
His true servants will be out to convert all who will hear to the principles of the gospel and they will offer them that one baptism which He proclaimed as essential. The preaching of the gospel is evident to one degree or another in most Christian churches. Most, however, are content to enjoy whatever they can gain from membership in their church without any real effort to see that others hear about it.
The powerful missionary spirit and the vigorous missionary activity in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints becomes a very significant witness that the true gospel and that the authority are possessed here in the Church. We accept the responsibility to preach the gospel to every person on earth. And if the question is asked, “You mean you are out to convert the entire world?” the answer is, “Yes. We will try to reach every living soul.”
Some who measure that challenge quickly say, “Why, that’s impossible! It cannot be done!”
To that we simply say, “Perhaps, but we shall do it anyway.”
Against the insinuation that it cannot be done, we are willing to commit every resource that can be righteously accumulated to this work. Now, while our effort may seem modest when measured against the challenge, it is hard to ignore when measured against what is being accomplished, or even what is being attempted, elsewhere.
Presently we have over 21,000 missionaries serving in the field—and paying for the privilege. And that’s only part of the effort. Now I do not suggest that the number should be impressive, for we do not feel we are doing nearly as well as we should be. And more important than that, any one of them would be evidence enough if we knew the source of the individual conviction that each carries.
We ask no relief of the assignment to seek out every living soul, teach them the gospel, and offer them baptism. And we’re not discouraged, for there is a great power in this work and that can be verified by anyone who is sincerely inquiring.
Now there is another characteristic that identifies His Church and also has to do with baptism. There is a very provoking and a very disturbing question about those who died without baptism. What about them? If there is none other name given under heaven whereby man must be saved (and that is true), and they have lived and died without even hearing that name, and if baptism is essential (and it is), and they died without even the invitation to accept it, where are they now?
That is hard to explain. It describes most of the human family.
There are several religions larger than most Christian denominations, and together they are larger than all of them combined. Their adherents for centuries have lived and died and never heard the word baptism. What is the answer for them?
That is a most disturbing question. What power would establish one Lord and one baptism, and then allow it to be that most of the human family never comes within its influence? With that question unanswered, the vast majority of the human family must be admitted to be lost, and against any reasonable application of the law of justice or of mercy, either. How could Christianity itself be sustained?
When you find the true church you will find the answer to that disturbing question.
If a church has no answer for that, how can it lay claim to be His Church? He is not willing to write off the majority of the human family who were never baptized.
Those who admit in puzzled frustration that they have no answer to this cannot lay claim to authority to administer to the affairs of the Lord on the earth, or to oversee the work by which all mankind must be saved.
Since they had no answer concerning the fate of those who had not been baptized, Christians came to believe that baptism itself was not critical in importance, and that the name of Christ may not be all that essential. There must, they supposed, be other names whereby man could be saved.
The answer to that puzzling challenge could not be invented by men, but was revealed. I underline the word revealed. Revelation too is an essential characteristic of His Church. Communication with Him through revelation was established when the Church was established. It has not ceased and it is constant in the Church today.
As I address myself to the question of those who died without baptism, I do so with the deepest reverence, for it touches on a sacred work. Little known to the world, we move obediently forward in a work that is so marvelous in its prospects, transcendent above what man might have dreamed of, supernal, inspired, and true. In it lies the answer.
In the earliest days of the Church the Prophet was given direction through revelation that work should commence on the building of a temple, akin to the temples that had been constructed anciently. There was revealed ordinance work to be performed there for the salvation of mankind.
Then another ancient scripture, ignored or overlooked by the Christian world in general, was understood and moved into significant prominence: “Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?” (1 Cor. 15:29.)
Here then, was the answer. With proper authority an individual could be baptized for and in behalf of someone who had never had the opportunity. That individual would then accept or reject the baptism, according to his own desire.
This work came as a great reaffirmation of something very basic that the Christian world now only partly believes: and that is that there is life after death. Mortal death is no more an ending than birth was a beginning. The great work of redemption goes on beyond the veil as well as here in mortality.
The Lord said, “Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.” (John 5:25.)
On October 3, 1918, President Joseph F. Smith was pondering on the scriptures, including this one from Peter: “For this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.” (1 Pet. 4:6.)
There was opened to him a marvelous vision. In it he saw the concourses of the righteous. And he saw Christ ministering among them. Then he saw those who had not had the opportunity, and those who had not been valiant. And he saw the work for their redemption. And I quote his record of this vision:
“I perceived that the Lord went not in person among the wicked and the disobedient who had rejected the truth, to teach them; but behold, from among the righteous he organized his forces and appointed messengers, clothed with power and authority, and commissioned them to go forth and carry the light of the gospel to them that were in darkness, even to all the spirits of men. And thus was the gospel preached to the dead.” (“Vision of the Redemption of the Dead,” The Utah Genealogical and Historical Magazine, Jan. 1919, p. 3.) http://books.google.com/books?id=u78UAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA5&ots=3gm4eYOMw4&dq=Vision+of+the+Redemption+of+the+Dead+1919&output=html
We have been authorized to perform baptisms vicariously so that when they hear the gospel preached and desire to accept it, that essential ordinance will have been performed. They need not ask for any exemption from that essential ordinance. Indeed, the Lord Himself was not exempted from it.
Here and now then, we move to accomplish the work to which we are assigned. We are busily engaged in that kind of baptism. We gather the records of our kindred dead, indeed, the records of the entire human family; and in sacred temples in baptismal fonts designed as those were anciently, we perform these sacred ordinances.
“Strange,” one may say. It is passing strange. It is transcendent and supernal. The very nature of the work testifies that He is our Lord, that baptism is essential, that He taught the truth.
And so the question may be asked, “You mean you are out to provide baptism for all who have ever lived?”
And the answer is simply, “Yes.” For we have been commanded to do so.
“You mean for the entire human family? Why, that is impossible. If the preaching of the gospel to all who are living is a formidable challenge, then the vicarious work for all who have ever lived is impossible indeed.”
To that we say, “Perhaps, but we shall do it anyway.”
And once again we certify that we are not discouraged. We ask no relief of the assignment, no excuse from fulfilling it. Our effort today is modest indeed when viewed against the challenge. But since nothing is being done for them elsewhere, our accomplishments, we have come to know, have been pleasing to the Lord.
Already we have collected hundreds of millions of names, and the work goes forward in the temples and will go on in other temples that will be built. The size of the effort we do not suggest should be impressive, for we are not doing nearly as well as we should be.
Those who thoughtfully consider the work inquire about those names that cannot be collected. “What about those for whom no record was ever kept? Surely you will fail there. There is no way you can search out those names.”
To this I simply observe, “You have forgotten revelation.” Already we have been directed to many records through that process. Revelation comes to individual members as they are led to discover their family records in ways that are miraculous indeed. And there is a feeling of inspiration attending this work that can be found in no other. When we have done all that we can do, we shall be given the rest. The way will be opened up.
Every Latter-day Saint is responsible for this work. Without this work, the saving ordinances of the gospel would apply to so few who have ever lived that it could not be claimed to be true.
There is another benefit from this work that relates to the living. It has to do with family life and the eternal preservation of it. It has to do with that which we hold most sacred and dear—the association with our loved ones in our own family circle.
Something of the spirit of this can be sensed as I quote from a letter from my own family records. I quote a letter dated January the 17th, 1889, Safford, Graham County, in Arizona. It concerns my great-grandfather, who was the first of our line in the Church, and who died a few days later, Jonathan Taylor Packer. This letter was written by a daughter-in-law to the family.
After describing the distress and difficulty he had suffered for several weeks, she wrote:
“But I will do all I can for him for I consider it my duty. I will do for him as I would like someone to do for my dear mother, for I am afraid I shall never see her again in this world.”
And then she wrote this: “Your father says for you all to be faithful to the principles of the gospel and asks the blessings of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob upon you all, and bids you all goodbye until he meets you in the morning of the resurrection.
“Well, Martha, I can’t hardly see the lines for tears, so I will stop writing. From your loving sister, Mary Ann Packer.”
I know that I shall see this great-grandfather beyond the veil, and my grandfather, and my father. And I know that I shall there also meet those of my ancestors who lived when the fulness of the gospel was not upon the earth; those who lived and died without ever hearing His name, nor having the invitation to be baptized.
I say that no point of doctrine sets this church apart from the other claimants as this one does. Save for it, we would, with all of the others, have to accept the clarity with which the New Testament declares baptism to be essential and then admit that most of the human family could never have it.
But we have the revelations. We have those sacred ordinances. The revelation that places upon us the obligation for this baptism for the dead is section 128 in the Doctrine and Covenants. And I should like to read in closing two or three of the closing verses of that section.
“Brethren, shall we not go on in so great a cause? Go forward and not backward. Courage, brethren; and on, on to the victory! Let your hearts rejoice, and be exceedingly glad. Let the earth break forth into singing. Let the dead speak forth anthems of eternal praise to the King Immanuel, who hath ordained, before the world was, that which would enable us to redeem them out of their prison; …
“Let the mountains shout for joy, and all ye valleys cry aloud; and all ye seas and dry lands tell the wonders of your Eternal King! And ye rivers, and brooks, and rills, flow down with gladness. Let the woods and all the trees of the field praise the Lord; and ye solid rocks weep for joy! …
“Let us, therefore, as a church and a people, and as Latter-day Saints, offer unto the Lord an offering in righteousness; and let us present in his holy temple … a book containing the records of our dead, which shall be worthy of all acceptation.” (D&C 128:22–24.)
I bear witness that this work is true, that God lives, that Jesus is the Christ, that there is on this earth today a prophet of God to lead modern Israel in this great obligation. I know that the Lord lives and that He broods anxiously over the work for the redemption of the dead, in the name of Jesus Christ. Amen.
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Once the person has died, they have a particular judgment — immediately. They know right away whether they are going to heaven or hell.
Some may go to Purgatory, thus, we are always encouraged to PRSY for the dead.
But after they have died is too late for a Baptism. Catholics believe that the Sacraments of Baptism, Confirmation and Holy Orders leave a non-eraseable mark on a person’s soul. So you see — everyone needs to be baptized BEFORE they die.
Our pastor has talked about deathbed conversions where he performed five Sacraments:
Baptism
Confirmation
Eucharist
Annointing of the Sick — which like Reconciliation forgives all sins
And in a couple of instance he has also performed a marriage.
Yes, there will be a final judgment at the end of time, but remember that a person meets God for a judgment (particular) at the moment of death.
No link for this thread?
It’s OK they can babtise my whole ancestry.
I secrety placed a curse on all theirs to reverse it (ha ha ! won’t they be surprised in the afterlife!)
For a review of Turnbower's "Rescue for the Dead", Did the Early Christian Church Seek Salvation for the Dead?
Excerpt:
Latter-day Saints and Shakers of the nineteenth century revived certain types of posthumous salvation, without necessarily being aware of the earlier history, save the one Pauline passage about baptism on behalf of the dead, 1 Cor. 15:29. This shows that the religious impulse to rescue the dead can arise any time there is enthusiasm for the new activity of God in the world. If the living can share in the new blessings bestowed by God, why should the dead be excluded? If the living can reorient themselves, repent, and/or benefit from the prayers of the living, why not the dead? For the Shakers, Mormons, and Universalists of the nineteenth century, reinterpreting traditional Christianity also meant throwing off traditional Christian restrictions on salvation for the dead. (p. 155)
As we see, the goal is reinterpreting traditional Christianity
I saw a comment on the baptism for the dead being described as comparable to offering ham to an Orthodox Jew!
The mormons were doing this over 100 years ago...
They got names of strangers from genealogical files just as they do now..
Back then they had excuses to get the names in order to dead dunk people NOT RELATED to them...
This is real “cute”...From 1899...
“The Mormons have a pretty idea that each name we resurrect, revere and transcribe in genealogy represents a living spirit, who thus honored and, as it were, invoked, ever after becomes one of our guardian angels. Think of having thousands of such beneficent spirits as protectors.”
(Publication. [Vol. 14] Illinois State Historical Society., Illinois State Historical Library. Springfield: , 1899- SPRINGFIELD, ILL. STATE JOURNAL CO., STATE PRINTERS 1910 P 75)
From the article, in 1975, Already we have collected hundreds of millions of names, and the work goes forward in the temples and will go on in other temples that will be built. The size of the effort we do not suggest should be impressive, for we are not doing nearly as well as we should be.
I believe I’ve asked you this before, but either you didn’t answer or I have forgotten the answer, so please indulge me.
What harm does this practice do? It may offend you but does it harm any living human? If so, how?
Thanks.
Am I correct in saying that the dead that have NEVER heard the gospel while they were alive are to be “preached the Gospel” in Hell or where ever... ???
If this is correct, why are Christians who have lived a Christian life and died a Christian with their Christian faith/church clearly annotated on their death certificate targeted by the mormons ???
Why are French Huguenots who fled from France to The US, rather than deny Jesus and the the Gospel, targeted ???These people are listed in the IGI, the “ordinance record” for dead dunking...
Plus they have had endowments and sealings done for them when they were married in the Methodist Church etc...
And the sealing to their children and progeny forever...
Descendants who have chosen to be Christians and maybe have already REJECTED the church of Joey Smith...
When their living descendants find those records, if they dont know better, what are they to think ???
That g-g-g-g-granddad, after enduring a nightmare as a refugee from his homeland, escaping with his life and his children, with his verboten Bible baked into a loaf of bread, turned his back on Jesus and apostasized from his Christian faith once he got to the US ???
This man I speak of paid for more than 100 acres of land in the US and donated the land to build a church...
and raised his children as Chrisians...
And his Christian influence continued in the family for generations..
But now according to “authentic” mormon documents, he is a mormon ???
Some folks here seem to think that being offended by the posts of the Inmans that are posted in rebuttal to mormon theology and practice is a major crime, although the posting of this information can in no way be described as "harmful" to any living human.
Perhaps walking in the offended shoes of those folks whose dead non-mormon relatives are highjacked would be a good experience for the ones offended by "anti" mormon posts.
and he is now a mormon although he died 100 years before Joey Smith was even born ???
hey kids - we have a winner !!!!!
exactly - the efficacy of a post-death baptism erases the need for a carnal repentance, carnal spiritual fruits etc...
The Blood atonement was meant for the physical
LDS has been caught repeatedly baptizing Holocaust victims.
Harm? Perhaps not. Tacky? At a minimum.
“Perhaps walking in the offended shoes of those folks whose dead non-mormon relatives are highjacked would be a good experience for the ones offended by “anti” mormon posts.”
Say what?
If I don’t believe in a religion and don’t believe in it’s practices then what it does over some old bones can not “Offend” or “harm” me or mine.
Cast all the spells they want but it don’t mean squat to me.
I put it in the same category as some Cajon Queen making a vodoo doll of me and sticking it with pins.
Ouch, my backs hurting - just kidding.
Mormons have their good points (as well as a lot of wacky, narrow-minded beliefs) and while I appreciate their genealogical work when it is accurate and supported by documentation, I've found numerous obvious errors in their FamilySearch.org database and litttle documentation.
And yet Monson has said that the temple means to the LDS...
“The temple lifts us. It exhalts us. It stands as a beacon for all to see and points us to celestial glory” Thomas Monson, Deseret Ne4ws, March 13, 2009)
No mention of the neferious goings on...
Not everyone shares your opinion.
The Mormon/Jewish Controversy: This web page chronicles the controversy between members of the Jewish faith and of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Mormons have been criticized in recent years for the practice of posthumously baptizing thousands of deceased Jews (among them Holocaust victims) and those of other faiths. In their missionary zeal, Mormons continue their wrongful baptism of Jews, attempting to convince people (dead or alive) from other religions to convert. Jewish leaders have called the practice arrogant and said it is disrespectful to the dead, especially Holocaust victims.
In a hundred years who will know the true facts about you and your heritage? Who will know anything about your family? No one. Very possibly no one! Because in a hundred years the record will apparently show that they were allegedly converts without making clear that it was by no act of their own.
By Bernard I. Kouchel
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (often referred to as the LDS or Mormons) has spent millions of dollars microfilming, indexing and cataloging nearly every document known to man from every country on earth -- including millions of Jewish records. Church members are encouraged to find the names of ancestors to baptize by proxy, which they believe gives the dead the opportunity to embrace the faith in the afterlife. A hands-on proxy baptism ceremony, called an ordinance, takes place in a Mormon temple, and includes full immersion to wash away sins and commence church membership. It is supposedly performed, commentators say, for people who had believed in Christ, but had not had a chance to be baptized. To be baptized is to publicly acknowledge one's faith in Christ as Savior and Lord. Originally, the practice was reserved for ancestors of church members, but over the years many other people have been baptized posthumously.
From the founding of their religion in 1830, Mormons have respected Judaism as a religion. Thus in 1994, Jews were outraged when it became known that members of LDS were posthumously baptizing Holocaust victims and other Jewish dead. Many followers of Judaism find the practice highly offensive, something akin to the forced baptism of Jews practiced for centuries in Europe during the Middle Ages. Some see the practice as an implicit bias, an act of intolerance.
The wrongful baptism of Jewish dead, which disparages the memory of a deceased person is a brazen act which will obscure the historical record for future generations. It has been bitterly opposed by many Jews for a number of years. Others say they will never stop being Jews, simply because there is a paper saying they had been baptized, that the act of posthumous baptism is unimportant and should be ignored. We think this to be a narrow, parochial, and shallow view. We will continue opposing this wrongful act which assimilates our dead to the point where it will not be possible to know who was Jewish in their lifetimes.
This author was among the first genealogists to discover the names of thousands of Jewish Holocaust victims in the International Genealogical Index (the "IGI") 1, the official Mormon index of proxy baptisms for the dead, and soon exposed this misguided practice.
Names are placed in the IGI by individual Mormon researchers or through Church name extraction programs. The names were extracted 2 mainly from two Holocaust memorial books. Gedenkbuch was extracted by individuals; the Memorbuch was part of the Church's 'Extraction Program', an ongoing program that acquired records and distributed them to trained Church member volunteers who then extracted the names and submitted them for posthumous baptism.3
A protest drive initiated by Jewish genealogists escalated it to a nationally publicized issue that was followed by public outcry. American Jewish leaders considered it an insult and a major setback for interfaith relations. They initiated discussions with the Mormon Church that culminated in a voluntary 1995 agreement by the Church to remove the inappropriate names. Activists continue to monitor Mormon baptismal lists, seeking removal of inappropriate entries.
Has the church done anything to uphold its decade-old agreement with the Jewish community? The bad news is that the Mormons did (and still do) hijack Jewish genocide victims and other Jewish dead. Moreover, when a Jew is baptized, the door is open for all of his deceased ancestors to be baptized as well. Regrettably, their baptismal records place before the public a revisionist view that these deceased Jews were Mormons, a position they would have rejected in life.
A commentator on this topic said that anti-Semites who desecrate Jewish cemeteries want to destroy even the memory of Jews by breaking their tombstones and other symbols whereby we honor and remember them. He concluded that baptism of the Jewish dead is just a more sophisticated form of breaking tombstones.
A blogger wrote: "I don't buy the argument that it's done for selfless reasons. It's not selflessness, it's arrogance. And especially in light of the Mormon Church's agreement in 1995 to stop baptizing Holocaust victims, it's even more reprehensible for them to continue the practice. If a church can't be trusted to keep its word in a matter such as this, then where is its moral standing?"
We want to say this to all well-meaning Christians: We don't want to be saved, redeemed, forgiven, reincarnated, resurrected, or enraptured. We just want to be left alone. After 2000 years -- is it so much to ask? We find the idea of Jews being posthumously baptized into the Mormon church to be deeply offensive in the extreme and cannot express our disgust, outrage and revulsion at this practice in strong enough terms. If everyone has free will, or "free agency" as Mormons say it, why bother with baptizing the dead who chose not to accept Christ? It takes the spiritual hounding of Jews to new lows; not even the grave is a refuge from over-zealous missionaries!
How can Jews be committed to enumerating descendants when the Mormons distort our family ties and our historic links to Judaism? You may wish to include this disclaimer in your genealogy records -- If you feel a special connection to those who have gone before you and an increased responsibility to those who will follow, you will insist on removal of their names from the baptismal lists. To search the IGI and/or for name removal instructions,
I note for posterity that if future researchers find records of baptized relatives in Mormon databases, know that these wrongful baptisms were inflicted on those relatives posthumously - - those entries do not reflect changes in religious choice or practice of our deceased ancestors.
Hey, ol’ Mormon Mountain Meadows Massacre Man,
“MERRY SMITHMAS!”
“For it is given unto man once to die, but after this the judgement.”
Have you already done your mishie thing, and are now preaching to us gentiles as an “elder”?
Just asking. Have a nice McConkie day!
(BTW, I’m one of those Catholic papist mackerelsnappers that your GA’s and Apostles love to hate.)
;^)
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