Posted on 03/23/2009 10:27:54 AM PDT by fproy2222
I am tired of how some anti-Mormons here at FR, and other places, mis-use the history and teachings of my Church.
This was posted:::::::::
“”””” President John Taylor stated: "Christianity...is a perfect pack of nonsense...the devil could not invent a better engine to spread his work than the Christianity of the nineteenth century." (Journal of Discourses, vol. 6, p.167); “””””
Here is the part of the article not posted for you and as you read it, you will find that it does not say the things about my church that is implued by leaving out large parts of the text.
Please note, the address is to us, the LDS people, from one of the church leaders at the time, telling us that we are not doing what we should and that we must do better.
In no way is President Taylor saying what the original post says he is saying..
Notice how the “…” jump the first part of the post into another sentence and into another thought.
The information is taken out of context and turned into an untruth.
I have put “{{}}” around the parts posted to make it easer to see the misuse of this document.
<><><>
We have first to learn submission to the will of God ourselves, through various trials, persecutions, and the development of our weaknesses and imperfections, and thereby learn to appreciate the goodness and blessings that flow from him. We must see that we ourselves first learn obedience, and then teach others. But how can we teach others a lesson which we have not learned ourselves?
There is not nation now that acknowledges that hand of God; there is not a king, potentate, nor ruler that acknowledges his jurisdiction. We talk about {{ Christianity }}, but it {{ is a perfect pack of nonsense }}. Men talk about civilization; but I do not want to say much about that, for I have seen enough of it. Myself and hundreds of the Elders around me have seen its pomp, parade, and glory; and what is it? It is a sounding brass and a tinkling symbol; it is as corrupt as hell; {{ and the Devil could not invent a better engine to spread his work that the Christianity of the nineteenth century. }}
(Journal of Discourses, 26 vols. [London: Latter-day Saints' Book Depot, 1854-1886], 6: 167.)
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I’m quite aware the assertion has been made; And although it’s commonly repeated by people with no such malice, I’m countering it by calling it an inane, prepostrous assrtion borne (originally) of desperate justification of profound evil. But yes, the precedents predated Ft. Sumter by enough that an violent, adulterous criminal like Joseph Smith could read the tea-leaves fifteen years earlier.
Maybe the tradition of men from the Constantine era never got it right?
You want truth try searching the scriptures and allowing the power of the Holy Ghost to bear witness.
So many think every thing have to fit within the Trinity triangle!
To me every thing needs to fit with the Word of the Lord!
I know what "traditional" Christianity teaches me, what does traditional Mormonism teach about these "Christian" facts.
Or simply the various methods Joseph Smith Jr. translated the BOM. You know, the seer stone or an angel telling him or .....
I want the LDS take on this - I know what Scripture says. I always get the run around whenever I ask any Mormon about the above.
Joseph Smith Jr. when asked said that Mormon meant "More good" in Egyptian ... didn't say whether or not it was Reformed or not (no such thing).
LOL
Filtered through the mouth of Joseph Smith????
That statement is ok for an “open” thread. It would not be ok on any of the others: prayer, devotional, caucus or ecumenical.
Thanks
It must have been a local news event in Independence, Missouri in the late 1890s. ;-)
Filtered through JS is right. *shakes head*
What gets me is the LDS idea that “errors” crept into the Bible during the “era of Constantine” and changed to include the “doctrines of Man.”
It appears beyond their grasp that God is powerful enough to keep His Word pure and intact. They really do believe in a weak god, don’t they?
BTW, when I was at BYU I took a Senior lvl seminar on Philosophy of Mormonism. One of the favorite topics was the “weakness” of God. I wrote a paper arguing against this.
I sorry but what President Taylor said is true just look at how some of these people act just like eggs hatch hell!
But the many who are also in the mainstream but their hearts really follow the Lord, Jesus Chirst or they would be over here bashing the LDS!
We don’t need to defend nor deny truth it will stand on its own merits.
By their fruit ye shall know them!
Matt. 7: 16-20
16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
The opposition MO is to divide and conqueror.
Man needs to listen to the Lord and search the scriptures this is where truth lies and the Holy Spirit will bear witness to all that is of our Lord.
John 5: 39
39 ¶ Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
Acts 17: 11
11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.
I say these things in the name of Jesus Christ, amen!
There you go putting words in my mouth I came into this Church through the Book of Mormon No missionaries, no knowledge of Joseph Smith etc
I received the witness of the Holy Ghost before all this awareness.
So the only filrer I have is the Holy Ghost!
those who justify, deny or avoid did me a favor when I was investigating the Church for I had to solely rely on the Holy Ghost for answer with prayer and pondering in the name of Jesus Christ!
Now we understand how you came to be a Mormon. Thanks
I came into this Church through the Book of Mormon No missionaries, no knowledge of Joseph Smith etc
Now we understand how you came to be a Mormon. Thanks
***
The Holy Spirit witness to me that the Book of Moromon is true and I have felt the Spirit in the Bible and when I prayed to know if The Book of Mormon was true it was the same Spirit of the Lord, now you know I have said many times that Joy was too beautiful and full filling, I need to search no more I have found The Church of Jesus Christ!
My objective is to explicate why I believe anti-Mormonism will always exist and why it is so often wrongfully received as anti-Mormon.
The following passage, as aMorePerfectUnion brought to the foreground on another thread, illustrates the kinds of differences between Christians which are to be expected, understood and tolerated.
Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.
One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day [alike]. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind. He that regardeth the day, regardeth [it] unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard [it]. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.
For none of us liveth to himself, and no man dieth to himself.
For whether we live, we live unto the Lord; and whether we die, we die unto the Lord: whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Lord's.
For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living. But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.
For it is written, [As] I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.
So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.
Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in [his] brother's way. – Romans 14:1-3
And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all [things] he might have the preeminence. For it pleased [the Father] that in him should all fulness dwell; And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, [I say], whether [they be] things in earth, or things in heaven.– Colossians 1:15-20
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men. – John 1:1-4
As another example, Muslims believe that Christ was a prophet but their belief is that His life began either in Mary’s womb or when He was physically born. To them Christ is a creature, not God the Creator and therefore we Christians must not help Muslims in any way to proliferate that anti-Christ message.
And that brings me to the LDS beliefs, which are more subtle, sometimes shrouded in secrecy and the subject of this thread.
Because LDS rejects the doctrine of the Trinity and sees the Father, Son and Holy Spirit as separate beings – it seemed to me at first that it was like Islam, as if Jesus’ life began in Mary’s womb. But upon closer inspection, it is apparent that the belief also sees the Father as having a beginning, albeit a spiritual realm beginning for each of Them.
In other words, it is apparent that under LDS doctrine, each are “a“ God in an infinite stream of spiritual identities having been born of prior Gods in a parallel spiritual realm, enfleshed and then, certain conditions having been met, raised to Godhood albeit with incorruptible flesh and bone.
In that doctrine, whereas Christ can be seen as Creator of this universe, He is Himself a creature in a spiritual reality. His Father likewise is a creature of a prior Father-God (and so on) about which prior generations there are no LDS revelations that I have yet seen.
And so under the LDS theology as I understand it, Christ is neither “the” God nor “the” Creator – and neither is God the Father. The LDS God is a creature albeit He may also be Creator of a subset of "all that there is."
Moreover, the LDS considers itself Christian, indeed “the” restored Christianity and yet the doctrine will continue to be dismissed at the root for the very same reason, i.e. it denies Christ is God the Creator. Even if all other differences could be laid aside, that one would not be: i.e. Who Christ IS.
The rejection is harsh of course – and no doubt could be seen as bigotry or even be taken personally, i.e. anti-Mormon v anti-Mormonism. And it is no doubt particularly hurtful when one considers all the good deeds of the LDS members and the kind fellowship offered by the LDS and our agreement on political, moral, social and ideological issues.
Nevertheless, it is what it is. The eternal penalty for denying Christ is even more harsh.
The stakes couldn't be higher. And it is not personal. It’s about the doctrine.
God is not made in the image of man. And so, Christians will always inquire as Sky Dancer did above and as Christ does in the following passage, What think ye of Christ? and respond accordingly.
By their fruit ye shall know them!
Matt. 7: 16-20
16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
The opposition MO is to divide and conqueror.
Man needs to listen to the Lord and search the scriptures this is where truth lies and the Holy Spirit will bear witness to all that is of our Lord.
John 5: 39
39 ¶ Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
Acts 17: 11
11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.
I say these things in the name of Jesus Christ, amen!
But have you found Jesus Christ?
You are correct, the truth will stand on its own. That is exactly what I believed when I set out to become an LDS apologist and fight the “anti’s”. What I found out was that the TRUTH stood on its own, while the LDS church and its doctrines fell and fell hard.
Lets look at the verse right before where you started, shall we?
Matthew 7:15 -16 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. Ye shall know them by their fruits.
Christ is speaking here of FALSE PROPHETS, like JS. You will know them by their fruits as well. What is JS’s fruit? Polygamy, bondage, heresy, false prophecies.
I posted this part on another thread, but it fits here as well:
YOU SAID : But the many who are also in the mainstream but their hearts really follow the Lord, Jesus Chirst or they would be over here bashing the LDS!
It did not feel like love either when I was LDS and people would witness the errors of Mormonism and the Truth of Jesus Christ of the Bible to me. I took offense. Yet God “wooed” me to Him, and I later came to see that those who “offended” me with the truth loved me more than those who did not.
Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth? (Galatians 4:16, KJV)
It seems only fools ask foolsih questions!
Thanks for that post - as I mentioned I’m anti-Mormon theology, not anti-Mormon ... great people so sadly misinformed ....
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