The Messianic Jew & Charismatic Dispensationalism

The Messianic Literary Corner ^ | 11/30/2008 | Marshall Beeber

[mbeeber]

	The Messianic Jew & Charismatic Dispensationalism by Marshall Beeber In the nineteenth century a theological revolution called "Dispensationalism" rightly outlined the "Biblical Historical Perspective", thereby giving mankind a clearer picture of how God has provided and continues to provide salvation to man throughout history.  By acknowledgement of this perspective, an accord between Hebrew Old Covenant and New Covenant prophecy was forged, sweeping away many of the contradictions that divided Christian and Orthodox Jewish prophetic viewpoints.  Dispensationalists became God's instrument of change in the nineteenth and twentieth centuries,  leading the way in promoting the support of the establishment of the state of Israel and bringing to light the prophetic signposts for the "End of this Age". But when Dispensationalists took a theological stand against the excesses they found in contemporary "Charismatic" Christianity, they "Quenched the Holy Spirit" by denying the validity of most Charismatic Christian spiritual experiences.  The result of this schism today is an eschatology shared by both Fundamentalist and Charismatic Protestant Denominations, but a sharp disagreement on the exercise of the gifts of the Holy Spirit. The Dispensationalists claim they are protecting the kingdom of God from spiritual frauds and false theologies, while the Charismatics believe they have tapped into the "true baptism" of spiritual experience.  Both sides have valid arguments as well as excesses.  The Dispensationalists often times exude an overly dry manner in their presentation of scripture and worship, while the Charismatics often exude a "heart first" approach, which lends themselves susceptible to erroneous doctrine presented in an exuberant fashion. Today most Messianic Jewish fellowships and congregations are disciples of one of the two movements mentioned.  As prophetic events move us closer to Messiah Yeshua's (Christ Jesus) return, believers are reminded of the Hebrew prophet Joel's promise of "prophecy, dreams and visions" among the elect of Israel before the great and terrible "Day of the Lord".1  Dispensationalists believe these occurrences were only present in the times immediately following the "Day of Pentecost" and will be present during the times just preceding "Judgment Day", where Charismatics believe these expressions of the Spirit were present from the Day of Pentecost continuously to the present day.2 Nevertheless, as the great "Day of Judgment" approaches, both Fundamentalist and Charismatic Christians should have more to agree upon than disagree.  When Dispensationalists accept they are living in the days just preceding the "Second Coming of Christ", they must also accept the very teachings they originally postulated. So as the "Day of the Lord" draws near, even Dispensationalists must accept those movements of the Spirit prophesied by Joel and recited by Peter on the Day of Pentecost. I believe Messianic Jews (Hebrew Christians) and Gentile Christians from Fundamentalist, Charismatic and Reformed backgrounds will soon come to an understanding that events much greater than themselves will soon shape their understanding of the Lord's will in regards to commonly held beliefs and attitudes.  We will all witness the same wonderful signs, tribulations and persecutions, whereby our love for the Lord Yeshua and one another will be tried and refined.  It is then that Jewish and Gentile believers in Christ will finally be united in purpose and strength as we all await the "Coming of the Lord". 1. Joel 2:28-29 2. Acts 2:16-18 (Additional studies and commentaries are requested. Feel free to email MLC your materials for posting)

[topcat54]

Here's another Sander's critique from a Reformed source.

[mbeeber]

Lee N.Field said: PCUSA. Known apostate

mbeeber states: At least the PCUSA is true to it’s apostacy. The so called “orthodox” reformed denominations are simply holding on to their fantasy that they love the Jews. Many Westminster Seminary educated OPs are just as virulent towards Israel, they just haven’t come out of the closet yet.

[Lee N. Field]

Lee N.Field said: PCUSA. Known apostate

I though everybody familiar with the American religious scene knew that. It's classic liberal christianity, not quite as far gone as the ECUSA. Probably wouldn't have as much trouble affirming "Jesus as Lord" than some others have. Getting there. I wouldn't be surprised if harbored some who keep Asherah poles and wax fat womyn idols. I really wouldn't.

mbeeber states: At least the PCUSA is true to it’s apostacy. The so called “orthodox” reformed denominations are simply holding on to their fantasy that they love the Jews. Many Westminster Seminary educated OPs are just as virulent towards Israel, they just haven’t come out of the closet yet.

(note to self: do not be drawn into answering a reducio ad Hitlerum argument.)

Dude, by the way, you still aren't answering questions. Mindful that we will answer for every careless word, please let us know who you've actually read, of the people you're maligning. Are you able to state their position in a way that they would recognize?

All I've heard so far are the usual standard canards.

[mbeeber]

Dear LNF: You must remember, I came to this forum with no malice intended. It was you and your cohorts that gave undue criticism to dispensational thought without respect for those individuals posting. Your cries of malignment are too self serving for your cause.

For the sake of upholding your reformed banner, you and your band have denounced every theologian cited that has taken issue with “replacement” theology.

This forum though does not serve the topic well. It needs to be moderated, so a flood of useless dialog is avoided.

Nevertheless, the forum has served it's purpose to a degree, letting those who are resolved to debate their cause clash with one another as medieval knights would blunt their swords through constant combat, until one combatant tires of the contest.

So it is with the reformed thought vs dispensational thought. It is all too vain a contest. For that reason I will mainly withdraw from such future contests and only submit my material to this forum for a brief discourse.

I was warned by a Hebrew Christian pastor that such unmoderated discourses generally end up as “spats”. He would not contribute to my cause and now I can understand why. Without moderation by a neutral judge, there are no rules to hold the contestants to an honorable debate.

You will see my posts again, but I will structure them to limit my personal interaction. Of course you are always free to criticize the contents.

In Messiah's grace,

Marshall Beeber
Messianic Literary Corner
http;//www.messianic-literary.com

[Uri’el-2012]

Always remember that there are dozens of lurkers
on each thread.

The lurkers discernment provides them with an understanding
of who displays the chesed of Yah'shua.

When someone becomes too abusive,
I Bless them and do not engage them again.

shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua HaMashiach Adonai

[af_vet_1981]

The spiritual inhabitants of the new Mt. Zion are no longer divided by race or ethnicity.

Again you focus on ethnicity, which you sometimes call race and ignore the gender. Are you really advocating unisex church(es) ?

More importantly, I suppose you have convinced yourself that each of these verses were fulfilled in 70 AD.

• For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
• Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
• And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
• And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Are you a WWII/Holocaust denier as well ? I assume you are in order to convince yourself that these prophecies came to pass in 70 AD so that, in your mind, the Roman war of 70AD was the worst tribulation in the history of the world.

So you essentially deny any future physical return of Jesus to this earth, any future physical resurrection of the dead on this planet, any future judgement on this earth, etc.

There seems to be a paucity of preterist churches so I'm unsure what you mean by "the Church." I assume it is not really a church you attend. I also assume you do not submit to the authority of the Pope and loosely identify with one of those mainline denominations that traces its origin to the Reformation. How many of those do we have ... I can almost see how the Mormons won some many converts ...

You have to believe in so many extremes, all based on your interpretation of a few passages in the New Testament books. You have boxed yourself into a corner so that you deny the resurrection of the dead and return of Messiah. Yeah, I know you will claim otherwise but it is evident that what you claim and mean by it is entirely different. One hears that sort of thing all the time from various cults.

[topcat54]

Again you focus on ethnicity, which you sometimes call race and ignore the gender. Are you really advocating unisex church(es) ?

I've already explained it. If you choose to ignore the explanation that is your problem.

More importantly, I suppose you have convinced yourself that each of these verses were fulfilled in 70 AD.

Yes, I do. The words of Jesus follow the pattern for similar prophecies in the Old Testament against temporal nations, e.g., Egypt and Babylon.

So you essentially deny any future physical return of Jesus to this earth,

You can try it, but that dog won’t hunt. Just because I do not agree with your interpretation does not mean that mine is necessarily incorrect. Again, if you were to do your homework and trace the language of Matthew 24 and Luke 21 through the OT, setting aside futurist presuppositions, you would see the reasonableness of looking to the fulfillment in AD70. Even many futurists admit that Matthew 24 has some fulfillment in AD70.

There seems to be a paucity of preterist churches

You can try to make your case from sociology, or you can deal with the text of the Bible. The choice is yours, my friend. Try exegeting a passage.

[af_vet_1981]

• Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
• Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
• But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
• And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD; for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
• Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts is his name:
• If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.
• Thus saith the LORD; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the LORD.

• Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
• Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
• But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

Even someone as dense and ignorant as me can see that the reference to heavan and earth in Jeremiah and Matthew is no accident ... Israel retains the promise as a nation until heaven and earth pass away; we have his word on it; better to be Balaam's beast of burden than Balaam, no ?

[topcat54]

Many Westminster Seminary educated OPs are just as virulent towards Israel, they just haven’t come out of the closet yet.

Sounds like a violation of the 9th Commandment.

Why are you stooping to this level, Marshall?

[af_vet_1981]

Even many futurists admit that Matthew 24 has some fulfillment in AD70.

Yes, the temple was destroyed. The Holocaust was a much more severe tribulation though. How could that be ? Jews who accepted Roman rule were relatively safe. That was not the case with the Nazis. Centuries of dispersion, persecution, with an increasingly lethal risk to the Jewish people. Today the threat is going nuclear. Yet you contend that 70 AD fulfilled those prophecies ... and that does not even include the resurrection of the dead, gathering of the elect of Israel from the four corners of the earth, and physical return of Messiah to Jerusalem in the same manner he left it.

[topcat54]

Even someone as dense and ignorant as me can see that the reference to heavan and earth in Jeremiah and Matthew is no accident

Then you certainly should be able to see the connection with Christ’s Kingdom and how Jews and gentiles are being brought into it to share the blessing of the promises made to Abraham. Why do you think Christ called it the Kingdom of heaven? Who is the true circumcision? Who is the true holy nation? Who is the Temple of God? Inquiring minds want to know.

[topcat54]

The Holocaust was a much more severe tribulation though. How could that be ?

Again, you exhibit unbiblical thinking. Is the great tribulation objectively more devastating than the great flood of Noah’s day? Jesus mentions Noah just a few verse further down. Was Jesus so dense that He could not tell that Noah’s worldwide flood was far worse than the localized great tribulation?

It’s called hyperbolic language and it is common in the Bible. It’s a figure of speech. Ken Gentry puts it this way:

Christ’s language is not meant to be taken literally. It is dramatic hyperbole, justified by the gravity of the situation. Not every Jew was killed, but its devastation was such that had God not limited it, le then surely all of Israel would have been totally destroyed (cp. Matt. 24:22).

Just check out these verses:

“Then there shall be a great cry throughout all the land of Egypt, such as was not like it before, nor shall be like it again” (Exodus 11 :6). {Plagues of Egypt}

“And I will do among you what I have never done, and the like of which I will never do again, because of all your abominations” (Eze. 5:9). (Judgment via the Babylonian Captivity)

“And He has confirmed His words, which He spoke against us and against our judges who judged us, by bringing upon us a great disaster; for under the whole heaven such never has been done as what has been done to Jerusalem” (Dan. 9:12). {Same event}

Don’t take my word for it, check out the Bible!!

[af_vet_1981]

Then you certainly should be able to see the connection with Christ’s Kingdom and how Jews and gentiles are being brought into it to share the blessing of the promises made to Abraham.

Certainly, the prophets say the same thing.

Why do you think Christ called it the Kingdom of heaven?

Because this earth will be destroyed and everything corruptible and physical will pass away

Who is the true circumcision?

Jesus, which is called Justus

Who is the true holy nation?

the Israel of God

Who is the Temple of God? Inquiring minds want to know.

• And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.
• Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
• That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
• Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
• Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
• Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
• And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
• For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
• And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
• Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
• And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
• And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
• That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
• But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
• Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.
• Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.
• Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God, even our Father, which hath loved us, and hath given us everlasting consolation and good hope through grace,
• Comfort your hearts, and stablish you in every good word and work.

[Lee N. Field]

I was warned by a Hebrew Christian pastor that such unmoderated discourses generally end up as “spats”.

2)Anybody with any experience online (and my experience goes waaaaaay back), could have told you that. It goes with the territory, unfortunately.

1), it is moderated, just not the way you want it to be.

Dear LNF: You must remember, I came to this forum with no malice intended. It was you and your cohorts that gave undue criticism to dispensational thought without respect for those individuals posting. Your cries of malignment are too self serving for your cause.

I'm sorry you feel like you've run into a buzzsaw. You actually came late into an fairly long standing discussion. Threads you've participated in haven't even been very long. There have been acrimonious eschatology threads that have gone well over 2000 posts within the last year.

For the sake of upholding your reformed banner, you and your band have denounced every theologian cited that has taken issue with “replacement” theology.

Doesn't cut it. You're in the field! You've never had to defend what you hold before?

As for "replacement theology", the only people who talk like that are dispensationalists. It plays well in the venues you frequent. Everybody talks that way in that close little dispensationalist orbit. Elsewhere, it's regarded as, at best, an inaccurate caricature. Surely you knew this? If you didn't, you do now.

You will see my posts again, but I will structure them to limit my personal interaction.

Label it [dispensational caucus]. Say what you want then with no fear of challenge, and free of meaningful interaction with opposing viewpoints. (See here for what a caucus designation does.)

So it is with the reformed thought vs dispensational thought. It is all too vain a contest.

I know you don't see it that way, but it's got to do with the nature of the gospel. Is it the same for everybody, or different, depending on who you are, when you live and who your ancestors were?

[af_vet_1981]

Christ’s language is not meant to be taken literally.

That is the essential difference between our positions. You extend this of course to the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, and teach that his word is not meant to be taken literally. I assume you gut most of the Tenach this way.

As for Exodus, I believe it, as literally written, like a little child.

As for Ezekiel 5, I believe it, as literally written, like a little child.

As for Daniel, I love him and I believe it, as literally written, like a little child.

I'm sure you can pull more modernists' proof texts of failed prophecies out; they must be all over the Internet now as well.

• The secret things belong unto the LORD our God: but those things which are revealed belong unto us and to our children for ever, that we may do all the words of this law.
• Though he slay me, yet will I trust in him: but I will maintain mine own ways before him.
• He also shall be my salvation: for an hypocrite shall not come before him.

[topcat54]

You extend this of course to the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, and teach that his word is not meant to be taken literally.

Well it's not, at least not the way you take the word "literaly". I've proved that from the Bible over and over. Jesus and His apostles did not interpret the OT "literally". They spiritualized it over and over to demonstrate that Jesus was the Messiah of Israel.

Call me when you want to exegete with the Bible.

[topcat54]

"Who is the true circumcision?"

Jesus, which is called Justus

It seems you go out of your way to avoid what the Bible, esp. the NT, says about these important questions.

"For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh; but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the Spirit, not in the letter; whose praise is not from men but from God." (Rom. 2:28,29)

"For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but faith working through love." (Gal. 5:6)

"For we are the circumcision, who worship God in the Spirit, rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh," (Phil. 3:3)

"In Him you were also circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the sins of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ," (Col. 2:11)

"Do you not know that you are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you?" (1 Cor. 3:16)

"But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light;" (1 Peter 2:9)

The flesh avails nothing. Israel after the flesh rejected their Messiah because they put confidence in the flesh.

More than once they boasted, "Abraham is our father." Jesus told them, "If you were Abraham's children, you would do the works of Abraham." He also told them, "For I say to you that God is able to raise up children to Abraham from these stones."

And to His Church, spiritual Israel, He says, "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise."

[topcat54]

Here's another commentary on the Jewish Roots Movement and the Wright/Sanders connection you might find interesting.

Now the new perspectives also lays claim to unearthing the Jewish roots of Christianity. And this is very much a gentile enterprise, conducted by outsiders like Sanders, Wright, Dunn, Esler and the like.

At the same time, they then position themselves as spokesmen for Judaism, lecturing Protestants on the true character of Pharisaic theology.

Ironically, one of the harshest critics of the new perspective has been Jacob Neusner, the world’s leading authority on Rabbinical Judaism.

[safisoft]

Ironically, one of the harshest critics of the new perspective has been Jacob Neusner, the world’s leading authority on Rabbinical Judaism.

Neusner is a luminary, there is no doubt, but the "leading authority on Rabbinic Judaism" - nonsense. There are leading experts on ancient Judaism, within Judaism, that work closely with scholars like Sanders, Nanos, et al. In fact, the vast majority of Jewish scholars of ancient Judaism in the Land of Israel are in the Sanders camp. You find men like Chaim Richman working closely with some Christian scholars.

[safisoft]

Well, it the main MJ'ism is just fundamentalist dispensational Baptist theology in a minor key.

You've bought into mbeeber's view. Messianic Judaism is only in a small way represented by Dispensationalist. The VAST majority of Messianic Judaism is NOT dispensationalist at all. We see supercessionism as the more dangerous view, but dispensationalism is only slightly better. No, the vast majority of Messianics decry dispensationalism. Fruchtenbaum does not represent our views at all.

Fruchtenbaum's circle is the old "Jews for Jesus" model, which the majority Messianic Judaism does not follow.