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To: TradicalRC; suzyjaruki; betty boop; Dr. Eckleburg; Mad Dawg; pgyanke; hosepipe; Quix
Isn't it funny that God bothered to become incarnate and live in the flesh among us? It's just so terribly physical/tangible of Him.

Indeed. But the point raised and discussed on the other threads is the difference that results from the perspective of the observer - physical or spiritual.

The Gospel of John reveals Jesus as God. The Gospel of Luke reveals Jesus as Man. Both are Truth. It’s not an either/or.

And each Apostle was unique. And each unique one was chosen specifically by Jesus Christ.

The gemstones in the foundation layers of the New Jerusalem (Revelation 21:19-20) are a beautiful metaphor. Each layer of the foundation is named after an Apostle. And each gemstone is a different color.

When light passes through a gemstone, it will appear to have a different color. An emerald would shine green light, a sapphire, blue, a ruby, red, etc.

Likewise when the Light of God shines through us into the world (Sermon on the Mount et al) our own uniqueness will often “color” the Light.

Some saints are so surrendered to God they are like pure diamonds and we hardly notice them at all.

Following the revelation that God is Light (I John 1:5) - I used the metaphor of a seven-faceted diamond (God’s revelation to us) to illustrate the difference in perspective between Catholics and Protestants:

I see the difference between the Catholic and Protestant views as if two people are looking at the same seven-faceted diamond but from different facets.

The one sees images in the diamond - himself, his forebears, saints, etc. - and thus sees that to honor those images is to honor the Light which illuminates them. His emphasis is on the images, the physical. In this case, the physical Apostolic succession by laying on of hands.

The other looks into the diamond and is blinded by Light. He sees no images at all and thus, to him, seeing images in the diamond is to miss the revelation of God altogether. His emphasis is on the Light alone, the Spiritual. In this case, the Spiritual succession, the indwelling of the Holy Spirit by the will of God alone.

It is the same diamond and the same Light. As long as the one is aware of analogical knowledge (the picture of a man is not the man, the statue of Christ on the cross is not Christ on the cross) - he will not fall into Spiritual error.

Protestants, for instance, focus on God accomplishing His will through men of His own choosing; Catholics, the submission of the saints to God’s will (e.g. Mary.)

And so on.

I submit that it is a matter of perspective – not either/or. For one to be “right” the other doesn’t have to be “wrong.”

God didn’t make us with a cookie cutter. Nor does He, the master artist, mix all the colors into one on His palette but rather has made a beautiful living masterpiece of all of us.

To God be the glory! I'm heading out now. See y'all later!

159 posted on 05/03/2008 10:22:43 AM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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To: Alamo-Girl
Not only are there different gemstones(crystaline structures) there are different qualitys of gemstones.. That is to say there differnt qualities of crystals.. Even with some gemstones there are various color and tints.. Like Topaz can be clear or in various colors.. As well as other stones.. even diamonds..

Who is to say one color or tint is better than others.. or one stone is better than another.. for they all are unique.. in sometimes subtle ways.. Its all how you look at it.. whether one stone is better quality than another..

God no doubt God sees each "stone" as unique.. and perfect for what they are.. Light refracting or reflecting or even EMITTING stones.. Different kinds of light(infra red, ultraviolet, or even microwaves) cause gemstones to react differently.. basically everyone is a preacher ugh errr.. light emitter..

165 posted on 05/03/2008 10:52:09 AM PDT by hosepipe (CAUTION: This propaganda is laced with hyperbole....)
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To: Alamo-Girl
I submit that it is a matter of perspective – not either/or. For one to be “right” the other doesn’t have to be “wrong.”

So true, my dearest sister in Christ! To suggest another analogy, these two views are each truthful "complementarities" that are ultimately unified in the One Light of God's Truth.

Thank you so much for your beautiful essay/post!

527 posted on 05/04/2008 10:22:20 AM PDT by betty boop (This country was founded on religious principles. Without God, there is no America. -- Ben Stein)
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To: Alamo-Girl; TradicalRC; suzyjaruki; betty boop; Dr. Eckleburg; Mad Dawg; pgyanke; hosepipe; Quix
I see the difference between the Catholic and Protestant views as if two people are looking at the same seven-faceted diamond but from different facets.

Yes I think so, and it is very difficult for me to say that as a Reformer. :) The first question I must face with honesty is whether I think Catholicism is a legitimate Christian faith. Yes or no. I started studying Catholicism seriously here on FR about two and a half years ago and I have come to a conclusion. And it is indeed ironic that while what I have learned has made it much LESS likely that I would ever convert to Catholicism, it nevertheless has made me MORE sure that Catholicism is a fully Christian faith. :)

So, given my Catholic brothers and sisters in Christ, I am then forced to apply my own Reformed beliefs. Those would be that God ORDAINED that Catholics BE Catholics! :) No matter how vociferous my disagreement with their theology is I don't know how to avoid this fact. That is, as of this minute. God can always dispense further sanctifying grace at His leisure. :)

The point of all this is that YES, Catholics and Protestants, in my view, are looking at the same core from different angles.

[continuing:] The one sees images in the diamond - himself, his forebears, saints, etc. - and thus sees that to honor those images is to honor the Light which illuminates them. His emphasis is on the images, the physical. In this case, the physical Apostolic succession by laying on of hands.

The other looks into the diamond and is blinded by Light. He sees no images at all and thus, to him, seeing images in the diamond is to miss the revelation of God altogether. His emphasis is on the Light alone, the Spiritual. In this case, the Spiritual succession, the indwelling of the Holy Spirit by the will of God alone.

Very beautifully put, AG. I think that is fair all around. Reformers definitely focus on the Light alone. We think the Light is the only place our faith comes from.

I submit that it is a matter of perspective – not either/or. For one to be “right” the other doesn’t have to be “wrong.”

I think on some matters that would be true, but on others I would have to disagree. For example, if Mary really truly WAS assumed into Heaven, then that would in no way wreck Reformed theology. However, if men really do determine their own destinies, from GOD'S POV, then Reformed theology evaporates. So, while I think you are very correct to note that differences in perspective can be gotten around if we consider context and intent, I also think that there are some absolutes that cannot be mitigated. AS A BASIC STRUCTURE, I really do believe that absolutes and antithesis are critical to Christianity itself. Just my opinion. :)

564 posted on 05/08/2008 2:11:01 AM PDT by Forest Keeper (It is a joy to me to know that God had my number, before He created numbers.)
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