Yes I think so, and it is very difficult for me to say that as a Reformer. :) The first question I must face with honesty is whether I think Catholicism is a legitimate Christian faith. Yes or no. I started studying Catholicism seriously here on FR about two and a half years ago and I have come to a conclusion. And it is indeed ironic that while what I have learned has made it much LESS likely that I would ever convert to Catholicism, it nevertheless has made me MORE sure that Catholicism is a fully Christian faith. :)
So, given my Catholic brothers and sisters in Christ, I am then forced to apply my own Reformed beliefs. Those would be that God ORDAINED that Catholics BE Catholics! :) No matter how vociferous my disagreement with their theology is I don't know how to avoid this fact. That is, as of this minute. God can always dispense further sanctifying grace at His leisure. :)
The point of all this is that YES, Catholics and Protestants, in my view, are looking at the same core from different angles.
[continuing:] The one sees images in the diamond - himself, his forebears, saints, etc. - and thus sees that to honor those images is to honor the Light which illuminates them. His emphasis is on the images, the physical. In this case, the physical Apostolic succession by laying on of hands.
The other looks into the diamond and is blinded by Light. He sees no images at all and thus, to him, seeing images in the diamond is to miss the revelation of God altogether. His emphasis is on the Light alone, the Spiritual. In this case, the Spiritual succession, the indwelling of the Holy Spirit by the will of God alone.
Very beautifully put, AG. I think that is fair all around. Reformers definitely focus on the Light alone. We think the Light is the only place our faith comes from.
I submit that it is a matter of perspective – not either/or. For one to be “right” the other doesn’t have to be “wrong.”
I think on some matters that would be true, but on others I would have to disagree. For example, if Mary really truly WAS assumed into Heaven, then that would in no way wreck Reformed theology. However, if men really do determine their own destinies, from GOD'S POV, then Reformed theology evaporates. So, while I think you are very correct to note that differences in perspective can be gotten around if we consider context and intent, I also think that there are some absolutes that cannot be mitigated. AS A BASIC STRUCTURE, I really do believe that absolutes and antithesis are critical to Christianity itself. Just my opinion. :)
And some people don't think God has a sense of humor.
I just look forward to that great and glorious day when we can all gather together around one table and raise our voices and proclaim, "G-17, I-5, O-12!" in one great song of Bingo!
It's a partial victory, but a victory nonetheless. ;O)
My only rewrite of that line would be to delete the word "fully."
None of us has all the answers. Perfect understanding simply in not in our DNA. And none of us truly knows any heart other than our own, and even that is sometimes difficult to really understand. We are all susceptible to self-deception.
Trinitarian belief that Christ died for our sins and paid for them in full is the lynch-pin that unites the Christian faith. Anyone in possession of this belief has most likely been gifted by God with His grace to understand and believe.
So, given my Catholic brothers and sisters in Christ, I am then forced to apply my own Reformed beliefs. Those would be that God ORDAINED that Catholics BE Catholics! :) No matter how vociferous my disagreement with their theology is I don't know how to avoid this fact.
And of course we can't avoid it. God has placed each of us where we're supposed to be today. Tomorrow, God willing, that place will be closer to Him than yesterday.
That is, as of this minute. God can always dispense further sanctifying grace at His leisure. :)
Amen. Exactly as He does for each member of His family.
The point of all this is that YES, Catholics and Protestants, in my view, are looking at the same core from different angles.
The actual question then becomes how much are each of us permitting something to distract us from that singular, uncluttered, God-glorifying view of His grace?
Is calling Mary a "co-redeemer" something that diffuses the glory of God alone and sends it back to the creature? I believe it is.
Is calling priests "another Christ" something that obscures our view of the only mediator between God and men, Christ Jesus? I believe it is.
Is believing that we are justified by works when Scripture tells us we are justified by the faith of Jesus Christ a real impediment to more "fully" understanding God's will and purpose in our lives? I believe it is.
Like everyone else around here, I have family and friends who are Roman Catholic and I love them dearly and have always felt we share the Christian perspective. But from my experience on these threads these past few years I've seen our real and tangible differences, and I am less confident of the RCC as a true expositor of God's word and will than I ever was before reading the many errors the RCC preaches, only a few of which I mentioned above.
But primarily I worry that the RCC teaches its members to disregard the Holy Spirit as a personal means of God instructing, leading and comforting His family. Instead the RCC teaches the Holy Spirit speaks to the magisterium and the magisterium then speaks to the congregation through the priest and the sacraments and finally God is filtered down to the individual believer.
How much of that is denying the Holy Spirit's work in our lives? I honestly don't know.
Likewise, so much in the Catechism of the Catholic Religion denies the correct definition of justification and instead almost mocks the grace of God by saying men's own good works help to justify their sins when we are told time and again in Scripture that Christ has justified the ungodly one-time on the cross and thus paid for the sins of His flock in full.
CCF: 1821 -- We can therefore hope in the glory of heaven promised by God to those who love him and do his will. In every circumstance, each one of us should hope, with the grace of God, to persevere "to the end" and to obtain the joy of heaven, as God's eternal reward for the good works accomplished with the grace of Christ.
Whose work are we being rewarded for -- our own or Christ's work on the cross?
To say our own good works earn God's approval rather than believing our good works are 100% the result of God's grace working through us by the indwelling Holy Spirit, according to Christ's righteousness imputed to us and not our own, again seems to deny the Holy Spirit's role and purpose in our lives.
And again this gets back to the incorrect definition of justification by the RCC...
1) According to the RCC, initial justification comes by baptism, whereas the Bible tells us justification is by faith alone.
2) According to the RCC, adults must prepare for justification through both faith and good works, whereas the Bible tells us God justifies the ungodly sinners who believe; therefore good works are the result of salvation, not the cause of it.
3) According to the RCC, the justified are themselves beautiful and holy in God's sight, whereas the Bible tells us the justified are in Christ blameless before God and holy.
4) According to the RCC, justification is furthered by good works and sacraments, whereas the Bible tells us justification is the imputation of the perfect righteousness of God. Only in and by and through Christ is the believer made complete.
5) The RCC teaches that justification is lost through mortal sin, whereas the Bible teaches just the opposite and that all those whom God justifies will be saved from His wrath.
6) The RCC teaches that once the believer's justification is lost through mortal sin it can be regained through the sacrament of penance, whereas the Bible teaches there is no "second justification." Those whom God justifies, He also glorifies.
As so many have said, a Scriptural understanding of why we are justified by Christ and how this transforms our lives goes to the reason we believe in the first place. Saved by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone for God's glory and the welfare of His family.
IMO either a member of the RCC will be led out of the errors of Rome and into the light of the truth, or he will be forgiven his errors just like all redeemed Christians are forgiven all their sins and errors -- by being acquitted through Christ's atonement on the cross alone by God's unmerited, free mercy alone.
Hah! Those Calvinist handcuffs go on so easily ... one "click", and you're caught in the paradox of your own theology! (Cue sinister black-robed inquisitor cackling demonically ... ) :-)
Seriously, thanks to you and AG for a ray of light amidst the darkness.
About half my family is Catholic and of course I know them all up front and personal. Each and every one of them loves God surpassingly above all else and that is the one and only Great Commandment.
Truly, sometimes both sides will be "right" - sometimes both sides will be "wrong" - and sometimes one is "right" and one is "wrong." The point I was trying to make is that for one side to be "right" does not ipso facto mean that the other side is of necessity "wrong."
Or to put it another way, John could not see through doubting Thomas' eyes.
In my view, the tendency of man to see so many things as either/or obstructs his spiritual discernment. The Jews for instance see the Messiah as a man anointed by God but cannot accept that He is both man and God. Ditto for the Messiah coming as a Lamb and again as a Lion. Ditto for God is One and also the Trinity of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.