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The deep wound of schism in the archdiocese (Schismatic parish excommunicated)
St. Louis Review Online ^ | December 16, 2005 | Archbishop Raymond L. Burke

Posted on 12/16/2005 6:39:40 PM PST by Petrosius

Introduction

I write, with heavy heart, about a situation which I, as bishop, had hoped that I would never have to address. I refer to the recent break with the communion of the Roman Catholic Church on the part of the board of directors of the civil corporation of St. Stanislaus Kostka Parish in the City of St. Louis, and on the part of the priest from the Diocese of Springfield-Cape Girardeau, whom they have hired to serve them. 

It saddens me, in particular, to address such a deep wound to the Church in our archdiocese in these days of our final preparation for the celebration of the Birth of Our Lord on Christmas. The fact of the schism, however, must be addressed by me now, because it has immediate effects in the whole Church, especially the Archdiocese of St. Louis. The priest in question has informed me that he will begin his service at St. Stanislaus Kostka Church on Christmas Eve. 

As archbishop, it is my responsibility to explain the situation to all of the faithful of the archdiocese, who are so deeply affected by what has happened, in order that they not be subjected to further confusion and division, that they not be deceived about the lawfulness and validity of sacraments celebrated by the schismatic priest and that they pray for the reconciliation of those who gone into schism. 

Schism

Schism is "the refusal of submission to the Supreme Pontiff or of communion with the members of the Church subject to him" (can. 751). It is the repudiation of the authority which Christ conferred upon St. Peter and the other Apostles in communion with him, and their successors. It, therefore, involves not only a premeditated and most grave act of disobedience to the authority of the Roman Pontiff and the bishops in the communion with him, but also a certain denial of an integral part of the Catholic faith, that is, the apostolic mark of the Church. In other words, those who choose to go into schism believe that they can be the Church without the pastoral teaching, ministration of the sacraments and governance of the Apostles and their successors. 

In the case of the board of directors of the civil corporation of St. Stanislaus Kostka Parish, the act of disobedience involves directly not only the archbishop of St. Louis but also the Apostolic See. They have rejected both my direction and the direction of the Apostolic See. 

At the beginning of my service as archbishop of St. Louis on Jan. 26, 2004, I was obliged to address the structure of the civil corporation of St. Stanislaus Kostka Parish, in order that it be in conformity with universal Church law which demands that the form of civil corporation respect the office of the archbishop and pastor of the parish. Because the bylaws of the civil corporation of St. Stanislaus Kostka Parish had been altered to eliminate any recognition of the authority of the archbishop and pastor, my predecessor, then-Archbishop Justin Rigali, had taken the proper steps to rectify the matter. In the meantime, he was transferred to the Archdiocese of Philadelphia, and, therefore, it was my responsibility, as his successor, to complete the necessary work which he had begun for the good of the faithful of St. Stanislaus Kostka Parish and of the whole archdiocese. 

From the very beginning of my service, the members of the board of directors of the civil corporation have refused to obey my directives and, in fact, made appeal to the Apostolic See against my directives to them. The appeal was made to the Holy Father?s Congregation for the Clergy, which is competent in such matters. The Congregation for the Clergy responded to the board of directors, strongly directing them to comply with my directives. When the board of directors refused to obey either my directives or the directives of the Apostolic See, I was obliged to impose the penalty of interdict, in the hope that the members of the board would recognize the error of their way and repent. I have insisted with the members of the board of directors that the way to unity and, therefore, peace is obedience to our lawful superiors in the Church, that is, the Holy Father?s Congregation for the Clergy. 

Conflict with the Roman Catholic Church

Some have understood that the conflict of the members of the board of directors of the civil corporation of St. Stanislaus Kostka Parish and of those who follow them is with me personally. Such is clearly not the case, as the decision of the Congregation for the Clergy indicated. Their conflict is with the Roman Catholic Church. It is a conflict which several of my predecessors addressed in their time. The members of the board of directors refuse to accept the governance of the parish by the Roman Catholic Church, insisting that they remain devout Roman Catholics by governing the parish themselves. They have, thereby, broken the bond of communion with the Apostolic See and the Archdiocese of St. Louis. 

Some have understood the object of the conflict to be power and money. Such is also clearly not the case. The object of the conflict is obedience, the obedience we all owe to the Apostolic teaching and discipline of the Church. 

The power in question belongs to Christ alone, who continues to guide the Church through those who act in His person as shepherd and head of the flock, in virtue of the Sacrament of Holy Orders and the jurisdiction conferred by the Holy Father, the Vicar of Christ on earth, and the bishops in communion with the Holy Father. It is precisely when we place ourselves above Christ and His authority in the Church that we introduce division into the Body of Christ. 

Regarding money, there has never been a question that the money and all the other temporal goods of the parish belong to the parish, as is the case with every other parish in the archdiocese. I have no authority to seize the funds of any parish for any purpose, no matter how noble. My interest in the right ordering of parish life at St. Stanislaus Kostka Parish involves money only to the extent that it includes the stewardship of the goods of the parish, according to ecclesiastical and civil law, and the vigilance over the administration of the temporal goods of the parish, so that they are used for the good of the parish. For that reason, from the beginning, I have insisted that a public audit of the parish?s goods be conducted, so that there could be no question of any misappropriation of the parish?s goods. 

Act of schism

The act of schism, committed by the board of directors of the civil corporation of St. Stanislaus Kostka Parish, was the hiring of a suspended priest, that is a priest who is not in good standing in the Church, for the purpose of attempting to celebrate the sacraments and sacramentals at St. Stanislaus Kostka Church. The priest in question, Father Marek B. Bozek, a priest of the Diocese of Springfield-Cape Girardeau, has left his priestly office of assistant pastor of St. Agnes Cathedral in Springfield against the explicit direction of his bishop, the Most Reverend John J. Leibrecht, and after Bishop Leibrecht had explained to him more than once the gravity of his action and its consequences. 

The fact of the matter is that only a priest who is not in good standing would agree to employment by a group of parishioners without the appointment of the diocesan bishop, that is, a group of parishioners who are breaking communion with the Church. All priests serve in communion with the diocesan bishop who serves in communion with the Roman Pontiff. When Father Bozek left his assignment without his bishop?s permission, he was rightly suspended. The penalty of suspension prohibits him from the exercise of his priestly office (cf. can. 1333, §1). 

A priest, who knowingly and willingly chooses to attempt to exercise priestly ministry outside of the communion of the Church and, thereby, assists and encourages others in breaking communion with the Church, clearly also commits the ecclesiastical crime of schism. To be clear, it is not only the members of the board of directors of the civil corporation of St. Stanislaus Kostka Parish who are in schism, but also the priest whom they have presumed to hire and who has agreed to be hired. 

In the secular media, it has been suggested that Bishop Leibrecht, more than once, asked me to accept Father Bozek for assignment to St. Stanislaus Kostka Parish, but that I stubbornly refused. The suggestion is totally false. Bishop Leibrecht informed me immediately when he learned from Father Bozek about his intention to accept employment by the board of directors of the civil corporation of St. Stanislaus Kostka Parish. Bishop Leibrecht assured me that he had not given Father Bozek any permission to pursue a position at St. Stanislaus Kostka Parish and that, on the contrary, he was insisting that Father Bozek remain faithful to the exercise of his priestly office at St. Agnes Cathedral. 

Father Bozek remains a priest of the Diocese of Springfield-Cape Girardeau. Bishop Leibrecht as bishop of Springfield-Cape Girardeau has made it abundantly clear that he desires Father Bozek to return to his diocese immediately, in order to be reconciled. It is my prayer that Father Bozek will respond to Bishop Leibrecht?s direction, in accord with the promise of obedience, which he made, in Bishop Leibrecht?s hands, to Bishop Leibrecht and his successors on the day of his ordination.  Please pray for the same intention. 

Consequences of schism

Those who commit the ecclesiastical crime of schism incur automatically the penalty of excommunication (cf. can. 1364, §1; and 1314). The excommunicated person is forbidden "to have any ministerial participation in celebrating the Sacrifice of the Eucharist or any other ceremonies of worship whatsoever" (can. 1331, §1, 1º); "to celebrate the sacraments or sacramentals, and to receive the sacraments" (can. 1331, §1, 2º); and "to exercise any ecclesiastical offices, ministries or functions whatsoever or to place acts of governance" (can. 1331, §1, 3º). The various elements of the penalty underline the fact that the party in question has broken communion with the Church. The prohibition of receiving the sacraments or sacramentals is suspended when the party under sanction is in danger of death, given that he is otherwise properly disposed (cf. can. 1352, §1). 

Although the excommunication is incurred automatically, it is my duty as the diocesan bishop in whose jurisdiction the act of schism has taken place to declare the excommunication, after I have made certain that the parties in question have understood the gravity of their act and its most serious consequences (cf. cann. 1717-1719). It has been made clear to me for some time that the members of the board of directors of the civil corporation of St. Stanislaus Kostka Parish have understood that the action of hiring a priest who is not in good standing in the Church to serve them carried with it the penalty of excommunication. Over the months since the imposition of the penalty of interdict, it has been my hope that the members of the board of directors would seek reconciliation. Also, I have renewed several times my offer to execute civil legal documents to guarantee what is already guaranteed by Church discipline, namely, the ownership of the temporal goods of St. Stanislaus Kostka Parish as a personal parish for faithful of Polish language or heritage. The members of the board of directors, however, have insisted on their governance of the parish, even if, at the same time, they have asserted their desire to be part of the Roman Catholic Church. Having attempted to address the situation through fraternal correction and other means of pastoral solicitude, including the pastoral visit of the Most Reverend Ryszard Karpinski, auxiliary bishop of Lublin in Poland and the delegate of the Polish Conference of Bishops for Polish faithful living outside their homeland, now I must declare that the latest action of the members of the board of directors constitutes schism, carrying with it the automatic penalty of excommunication (cf. can. 1341). 

The ordained priest who goes into schism, in addition to being bound by the above-listed prohibitions, is also rendered irregular for the exercise of Holy Orders (cf. can. 1044, §1, 2º). In other words, he may not exercise the Sacrament of Holy Orders which he has received. Any Mass celebrated by a suspended and excommunicated priest is valid, but illicit. To knowingly and willingly celebrate the Holy Mass, when one is legitimately prohibited from doing so, is a most grave sin. A priest under the penalty of excommunication does not give valid sacramental absolution (cf. can. 966, §1). Neither can he validly officiate at a wedding (cf. can. 1108, §1). 

The celebration of the Sacrament of Confirmation by a schismatic priest is invalid because he no longer has any faculty to do so, either by universal Church law or the granting of the faculty by the diocesan bishop (cf. can. 882). Baptism and the Anointing of the Sick are conferred validly but not licitly (cf. cann. 862; and 1003, §§1-2). 

The faithful who approach a schismatic priest for the reception of the sacraments, except in the case of danger of death, commit a mortal sin. All of the faithful of the archdiocese should guard against any participation in the attempt to celebrate the sacraments or sacramentals at St. Stanislaus Kostka Church. Also, they should caution visitors and others who are unaware of the status of St. Stanislaus Kostka Parish, lest they unknowingly participate in the schismatic acts. 

Finally, since the civil legal control of St. Stanislaus Kostka Parish belongs exclusively to the  members of the board of directors of the civil corporation and they have chosen to lead the members of the parish into schism, I will be obliged to suppress St. Stanislaus Kostka Parish. It is not possible for St. Stanislaus Kostka Parish to remain a parish of the Archdiocese of St. Louis and, at the same time, to operate completely independently of the Apostolic See and the Archdiocese of St. Louis. 

Conclusion

As I wrote at the beginning, my heart is heavy in writing to you about the break of communion with the Church by our brothers and sisters at St. Stanislaus Kostka Parish, most especially at the Holy Seasons of Advent and Christmas.  We must not, however, permit Satan to steal our joy at the preparation for Christmas and the celebration of the Birth of Our Lord Jesus. Let, rather, the mystery of the Incarnation, which we will celebrate with deepest joy on Christmas Day and throughout the Christmas Season be the source of our renewed prayers for the reconciliation of the members of the board of directors, of those who support them, and of Father Marek Bozek. 

On Dec. 17, we will begin the final days of our preparation for the Solemnity of the Birth of Our Lord Jesus Christ. On each day, from Dec. 17 to Dec. 24, we will salute Christ our Savior by one of the ancient and beautiful titles given to the long-awaited Messiah. The last of the titles is Emmanuel. It contains all the other titles, for it means: God with us. Let us, through the intercession of Our Lady of Czestochowa, implore our Lord Jesus Christ, the Divine Mercy, on behalf of the reconciliation of those who have gone into schism. Christ, Divine Mercy Incarnate, accomplishes all things. Let us place the dolorous situation of St. Stanislaus Kostka Parish into all-merciful and loving heart. 

These are days of strong grace in the Church. May we keep them with deepest faith and so obtain the grace of being fittingly prepared for the great  celebration of the Birth of our Savior. Through the observance of these final days of Advent, may many graces come to our homes and our archdiocese, uniting us in the peace which Christ brought to the world at His Birth.


TOPICS: Catholic; Current Events
KEYWORDS: excommunicated; schism; stlouis; wwwsaveststansorg
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To: redgolum

Does anyone know who is saying mass at the church the next two weeks? Is the diocese in control or the locals?


61 posted on 12/17/2005 11:06:32 AM PST by bigsigh
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To: BlackElk

Thanks.

I know who a few of the worst of the 'bad guys' are (Cleveland, San Francisco, Miami come to mind), but I don't know who the good guys and who the middle of the roaders are. I can do a little better with the ECUSA bishops.


62 posted on 12/17/2005 11:11:28 AM PST by PAR35
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To: bigsigh; BlackElk

No idea, but I suspect it was the non licit priest that they hired.

My comments on Missouri corporate law has more to do with a rather nasty lawsuit in my own LCMS than this case, but there are some similarities.


63 posted on 12/17/2005 11:22:12 AM PST by redgolum ("God is dead" -- Nietzsche. "Nietzsche is dead" -- God.)
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To: redgolum

I wouldn't think the church would try physically root out this guy, but I don't know how they will proceed.


64 posted on 12/17/2005 11:24:23 AM PST by bigsigh
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To: jecIIny
I'm not taking a side on this one. I just wanted everyone to have the info so they can draw their own conclusions. I only actively encourage splits in the ECUSA and the PCUSA these days.

It is interesting in light of the litigation going on in Oregon as to the ownership of the parish properties. As I've noted on some of those threads, if you go towards setting up solid legal protection from the diocese creditors, the bishop will risk losing control of the property. On the other hand, if the bishop keeps too much control, he risks losing it to creditors.
65 posted on 12/17/2005 11:24:38 AM PST by PAR35
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To: BlackElk
If any among them are willing to put aside their sins of pride, disobedience, defiance and scandal and come groveling back in abject humiliation, certainly Archbishop Burke will consider entertaining individual pleadings.

IIRC, once the penalty of excommunication is imposed, only the Pope may remove it. Prayers for the Archbishop in this very serious and severe aspect of his episcopal ministry, and prayers for these schismatic parishoners, that they may come to realize their error and work to return to the Church.

66 posted on 12/17/2005 11:54:27 AM PST by COBOL2Java (The Katrina Media never gets anything right, so why should I believe them?)
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To: solitas; PAR35
In religious life a monk or nun is required to make a triple vow: chastity, poverty and obedience. These are called the "evangelical counsels," based on the live of Jesus. By taking these vows those entering religious life seek to model their lives after that of our Lord. Looking from the outside the world is often fascinated and amazed by the characteristics of chastity and poverty. If you were to speak to those in religious life, however, you would find that the hardest of the three is often that of obedience; and it is obedience that is the most important to master.

All sin, in one form or another, is rooted in disobedience to God. Having been made in the image and likeness of God we have been given the great gift of a free will. This free will was given to us so that we could offer ourselves back to God in an act of love that must be a free will offering. When we turn our will away from God to anything else, be it ourselves or some portion of creation, sin enters in.

In this Sunday's Gospel we have the beautiful story of the Annunciation. Here the angel Gabriel comes to Mary to announce that she is to be the mother of the Saviour. We often focus on the fact that Mary bore and gave birth to Jesus. The beauty of her soul, and the sign of her holiness, however is revealed in the words with which she responds: Ecce ancilla Domini, fiat mihi secundum verbum tuum "Behold the handmaid of the Lord; be it done to me according to thy word."

Our own holiness corresponds to how we respond to God's grace and live out our own "Behold the servant of the Lord; be it done to me according to thy word." The parishioners at St. Stanislaus Kostka have decided that they will not live this out but will follow their own will. In defying their bishop they are defying the authority of Jesus Christ Himself as given to the Apostle and handed down to their successors.

This goes beyond a dispute over property. As the legal owners of the property they had no obligation to cede it to the diocese. They could have kept it and turned it into a Polish cultural center. But they have no right to demand that it be recognized as a parish; this is at the sole discretion of the bishop. When they went outside the diocese and hired their own priest this was an act of schism which by their own actions separated them from the Church. For us Catholics the Church is not just an administrative body of believers. It is the sacramental presence of Jesus Christ in the world. To separate ourselves from the Church is to separate ourselves from the Lord Himself.

And here, I would submit, is a major difference between Catholics and Protestants. While a Protestant may well speak of the need to submit to the will of God, there is no test of this. Instead he submits to what is his own judgment of the will of God, which in the end is nothing more than to submit to his own will. Thus the reason that our Lord established a visible church with a personal authority vested in the Apostles which continues today in the bishops.

67 posted on 12/17/2005 11:56:13 AM PST by Petrosius
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To: solitas; SuziQ; ninenot; sittnick; Jim Noble; TonyRo76; redgolum; PalestrinaGal0317
SOLITAS: Your opinion as to the adequacy of the explanation and of the reinforcement of the decisions and actions of these excommunicated scismatics will become relevant just as soon as you become the Roman Catholic Archbishop of St. Louis or pope, neither of which seem overly likely on the record to date.

The opinions of the excommunicated schismatics of St. Stanislaus Kostka may become vaguely admissible if and when, after appropriate penance and humiliation, any or all have been readmitted to membership in the Roman Catholic Church. Unless and until that has occurred they have become the ecclesiastical equivalent of the Union Band Church of Jesus Christ Fire Baptized. They are outside the Church. God gave them free will to use or abuse. They chose to abuse. Perhaps they will repent. Perhaps not.

As to another of your posts, I certainly am an intolerant person as I should be and as you should be. I am intolerant of abortion, intolerant of homosexuality, intolerant of theological error (expressing myself on the subject usually only when the Roman Catholic Church is attacked by outsiders), intolerant of schismatic opinion, intolerant of the actions of excommunicati. We Catholics are admonished by the Roman Catholic Church to hate the sin and love the sinner.

You are overly sensitive. If you rely upon the understandable defense that a public forum welcomes the opinions of all within its rules, you are correct. No one suggested disciplining you in any way. I cannot imagine such a disciline here since the proprietor is himself a non-Catholic Christian. Likewise, I am free to tell you that this Catholic and other Catholics are not interested in your theological speculations as to how the Roman Catholic Church might best be governed in line with your idiosyncratic imaginings of the meaning of Scripture. You have no horse in this race and, as a non-Catholic, no standing to argue.

As Catholics require a higher degree of qualification and authority (apostolic succession, thepapacy, the Teaching Magisterium of the Roman Catholic Church) than some often (The New, Incredibly New, New Good News!!!! Bible or whatever in lieu of the magnificent King James Bible, even though it is not Catholic) chalk on a blackboard translation of Scripture and a few reading lessons, what can we gain by listening to outsiders as to Church internal governance????? We don't listen to us on this subject. Whyever would we listen to you??????

I try not to stick my Catholic nose into the affairs of non-Catholic churches. Vicki Gene as an Episcopalian bishop; the Rev. Mr. Jimmy Swaggert in trouble on moral grounds; whatever, unless the misbehavior is an attack on the Roman Catholic Church. All members of mankind (save Jesus Christ and Mary) are sinners whether popes, cardinals (Law and Mahoney and the late Bernardin, for three examples), archbishops, bishops, priests, ministers, rabbis, nuns, husbands, wives, kids and old folks, the living and the dead. I have enough to concern me as to bad behavior in Catholicism to keep me too busy to worry about the problems of the internal governance of your church, whatever it may be.

You will note that I have not accepted or incorporated herein criticisms of you made by others here. I don't know you or your prior track record here. I assume you to be a person of good will who means well and has been found rooting around in the underwear drawer of the Roman Catholic Faith which you do not share, and probably for what you assume to be our own Catholic good.

Many non-Catholics are strong allies of Catholics in matters of public policy and vice versa. Good manners dictate that we respectively mind our own business as to one another's churches. Accordingly, I ping the LCMS Redgolum and the UCC Jim Noble and the ELCA TonyRo to witness this post.

Finally, there may be several meanings of catholic. We are obviously NOT discussing the common term for universal but rather we ARE discussing the specific term for the Roman Catholic Church.

68 posted on 12/17/2005 12:05:20 PM PST by BlackElk (Dean of Discipline of the Tomas de Torquemada Gentlemen's Club)
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Comment #69 Removed by Moderator

To: solitas

This is a replay of the PNCC schism(Polish National Catholic Church) that took place in the US 100 years ago, but one big difference was that 100 years ago, many of the Bishops in the US treated various Easteren European groups like dirt, and refused to accomdate them in any way, untill the PNCC schism gained enough momentum for the Bishops to give the various slavic communities pastoral care. In this case, Abp. Burke has established a new Polish ethnic parish at St. Agatha. This is not a schism about ill treatment, or theology or even liturgy, it is about money.


70 posted on 12/17/2005 12:56:24 PM PST by RFT1 ("I wont destroy you, but I dont have to save you")
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To: Petrosius
While a Protestant may well speak of the need to submit to the will of God, there is no test of this.

That is not correct. While the Scriptures provide the ultimate test, most protestant churches require obedience and submission. In the churches which follow the episcopal model (Episcopal, Methodist, Lutheran, to some extent the PCUSA, etc.) it isn't much different than what you see in the Roman Catholic church. In those which follow the Presbyterian form of government (Presbyterian, Reformed, etc.) , authority lies in the Presbyteries and Synods or Assemblies. Even in a congregational church (Baptists, Bible, Congregational), if you 'do your own thing' you are likely to find yourself disfellowshiped or excommunicated.

From the membership vows of one church: "Do you submit yourself to the government and discipline of the Church, and promise to study its purity and peace? "; for the candidate for licesure: "Do you promise to submit yourself, in the Lord, to the government of this Presbytery..."; for candidates for ordination: "Do you promise subjection to your brethren in the Lord".

71 posted on 12/17/2005 1:06:11 PM PST by PAR35
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To: PAR35
The difference is that with Protestants they can first form their beliefs and then find a church that matches them. Each of these churches profess a belief that it is the Bible that is the sole rule of faith; the church just offers what it believes is the best interpretation. If someone should find themselves at odds with the teaching of a certain church they can move to one that more closely matches their beliefs or start their own. Thus church discipline is no real guide to evangelical life.
72 posted on 12/17/2005 1:15:55 PM PST by Petrosius
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To: BlackElk
Thanks for the ping, my brother.

It has been a long, long time since I've set foot in a UCC Church, except for family funerals.

But the point that an RC parish is not a local or particular church, in the sense that the Middleton Gospel chapel is, is correct and well taken.

73 posted on 12/17/2005 1:16:53 PM PST by Jim Noble (Non, je ne regrette rien)
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To: Petrosius
The difference is that with Protestants they can first form their beliefs and then find a church that matches them. Each of these churches profess a belief that it is the Bible that is the sole rule of faith; the church just offers what it believes is the best interpretation. If someone should find themselves at odds with the teaching of a certain church they can move to one that more closely matches their beliefs or start their own. Thus church discipline is no real guide to evangelical life.

Most of the dogma in churches are laws of man far removed from the intent of the scriptures. For example there is no prohibition in the Bible for preachers to marry. Now Paul stated HIS personal choice on the matter but he also warned better to marry than burn with lust. If I need advice from clergy involving my marriage I would seek out one who is married so he would have a clue as to what I was saying. That is but one example. Another is things like birth control. No prohibitions in the Bible. It derived from a verse taken out of context where a man was told to produce a child. That was addressed to that man not everybody else. Many persons practice birth control for very good reasons including the health of the mother.

On the other hand Protestant Churches in some sects go overboard even as to prohibit the drinking of wine or some even dancing. Being drunk is a sin as it allows the mind to loose control. But even Paul taught some wine is good for the stomach and it wasn't Welch's grape juice.

Some need the rigidity of authoritarian church leaders overseeing there every waking hour and some do not. I will say this much from what I have seen. Many churches that have the strictest dogma usually have the highest rate of falling away. I've seen it happen to quite a few persons I knew that attended Pentecostal {Charismatic} Churches. The church dogma {laws} become so restricting no one can abide in them and the person gives up. Remember this though if man could follow the law and live it then Jesus would not have had to go to the cross. Christ did what we could not. If a church leader is wrong no matter if he is the president of the Southern Baptist or the Pope I don't follow or submit to the wrong just because he is a church leader. All churches have had their dark ages so to speak. One should attend the church where the Holy Spirit leads them.

74 posted on 12/17/2005 1:51:12 PM PST by cva66snipe
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To: Petrosius
If someone should find themselves at odds with the teaching of a certain church they can move to one that more closely matches their beliefs or start their own.

Come on now. You can do that in the Roman Catholic church as well. Want to speak in tongues? I'll find you a charismatic Catholic church. Don't believe in tongues in the present age? I'll find you one. Latin Mass? That will take some doing, but you can find those if you really look.

Pro contraception? no difficulties. Pro abortion? you'll have to look a little harder, but you can find that. Pro homosexual? Move to Cleveland. Baptism by immersion? By pouring? just shop around. One that follows the teachings of Rome? Depending on geographic location, it might be hard or easy to find. One that follows historic geographic boundaries for the parish? I know of one in this Diocese which still sets out boundaries.

What were you saying about a Protestant being able to shop around?

75 posted on 12/17/2005 2:09:23 PM PST by PAR35
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To: BizzeeMom

"On a side note, Bishop Leibrecht celebrated his 75th birthday on Aug 8, 2005.

He is close to retirement.

Wow, good find. Wonder if he has sent his resignation yet?"

Biz, he sent his resignation in on Aug. 8..as of yet no answer from Rome..Bishop Liebrecht had run a very tight,smooth ship until this hit...FWIW, he is the former superintendent of St. Louis Catholic schools..he is one of the finest men I have ever known.


76 posted on 12/17/2005 2:13:52 PM PST by Ravens70
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To: Most but not All

Did. You. Even. Read. Some. Of. The. News. Articles. On. Their. Site?
http://www.saveststans.org/latestNews.html
http://www.saveststans.org/St_Stanislaus_Deed.html
http://www.saveststans.org/history.html
http://www.saveststans.org/FAQ.html

Apparently Wojtyla Himself has even been there.
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=site%3Asaveststans.org+Wojtyla&btnG=Google+Search

And a rough search of the St.Louis Post Dispatch's site shows nothing in the way of retractions, omissions, or errors relating to "kostka", so One may assume their reporting to-date has been accurate, or at least uncontested.
http://www.google.com/search?q=site%3Astltoday.com+kostka

A very good thumbnail history is given at http://www.saveststans.org/news_10_04_04.html and if any of you read nothing else, read this page.

Then you may choose to continue in a black-is-white mindset. I'm outta here - no offense: you're all (as am I) just a bunch of words/characters on a screen and some b=w debates just aren't worth it after a certain point.


77 posted on 12/17/2005 3:47:23 PM PST by solitas (So what if I support an OS that has fewer flaws than yours? 'Mystic' dual 500 G4's, OSX.4.2)
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To: BizzeeMom
Wonder if he has sent his resignation yet?

"On Aug. 8, Leibrecht turned 75, the official retirement age for his chosen profession. His resignation was submitted to Pope Benedict earlier this month.

Moore said it could be anywhere from four months to more than a year before a successor is named.

Leibrecht is planning to retire in Springfield to continue to serve the diocese in any manner possible, Moore said."

source

78 posted on 12/17/2005 4:26:20 PM PST by show me state
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To: TotusTuus

As a Catholic I am saddened by this; I cannot help but be suspicious of the hierarchy, which has sold Church property including consecrated churches to pay hush money, and which deserts the people of a large amount of south St. Louis County, which refuses to evangelize the Muslim Bosnian community, about a property on the edge of a newly gentrified and valuable downtown "loft district".


79 posted on 12/17/2005 5:49:13 PM PST by steve8714
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To: netmilsmom

This is not in any way a question of doctrine. What if the council sold the property and divided the proceeds among the parishoners?
The church would then be closed, and the image of the archdiocese maintained; remember that financial scandal can be just as ruinous as heterodoxy.


80 posted on 12/17/2005 5:54:37 PM PST by steve8714
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