Musings on the person and ministry of the Holy Spirit

1) Paul, in his letters, is constantly stressing the need to live by the Holy Spirit. This is especially so in his letter to the Galatians. Living by the Spirit and being controlled by the Spirit is absolutely critical for living a righteous Christian life. The Holy Spirit is the power that enables us to live a godly life. (Ga 5:16-26)

2) Jesus, in the Last Supper discourse in the book of John, tells his disciples that it's a good thing he's leaving them! (To die, and be resurrected, then to ascend to heaven.) The reason it was to their advantage was so that the "helper" (Holy Spirit) would be sent to them. Jesus thought it better for the disciples to have the Holy Spirit with them, than for He, himself to stay. This is not just false humility on Jesus' part, he honestly believed that it was better for the disciples to have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit than for himself to continue leading and guiding them. If Jesus thinks the impartation Holy Spirit is that important for believers, then be assured that it should be a priority for us to know and understand the Holy Spirit and his ministry. (Jn 16:5-16)

3) Neither Paul nor Jesus explains exactly how we are to live by the Holy Spirit. It is assumed that believers will know how to do this. No practical instructions for "living by the Spirit" are given anywhere in the NT. Because of this, we must figure this out on our own, though we can certainly rely on the Holy Spirit's help.

4) Despite the lack of practical instructions, we do have a model, or standard, of what it is to live by the Holy Spirit. This model is none other than Jesus himself. All four gospels accounts show us a perfect picture of what it is for a man to live by the power of the Holy Spirit. And yes, it can be easily demonstrated that Jesus did, in fact, expect his followers to live the sort of life he modeled for them. But not only did he want them to be imitators, but even to even exceed the example he gave. (Jn 14:12)

5) We also have another model of what "living by the Spirit" is like for believers: the entire book of Acts. It clearly demonstrates that the early believers, moved in the power of the Spirit, and were able to do the same sort of miracles as Jesus did. Though the book of acts highlights the ministry of key apostles, there is nothing in the NT that limits the power of the Holy Spirit to apostles only. In fact, from Paul's instructions to the Corinthians, it seemed as if the charismatic gifts were distributed to a wide range of believers, regardless of influence. (1 Cor 12-14)

6) Two of the four gospels, Mark and John, take it as their starting point Jesus' baptism by John the Baptist, and his subsequent baptism by the Holy Spirit. Jesus did not do a thing, in terms of ministry, until he received the water and the Spirit baptisms. While many people were baptized at that time, it was only Jesus who received the gift of the Holy Spirit in power. Later, in the 2nd chapter of the book of Acts, we see how the Spirit was poured out upon the disciples after Jesus' ascension. The pouring out of the Spirit enabled the disciples to engage in the same sort of ministry that Jesus did, and move in power, signs and wonders. (Acts 2-5)

7) It is very important to realize that Jesus was fully man. While he certainly knew who he was, he did not claim any of the divine powers of his position. We often get the mistaken notion that Jesus moved in miracles because he was divine. But the truth of the matter is that he emptied himself of all divinity, other than his identity. He voluntarily chose to leave his divine power behind when he came to earth in human form. He was absolutely a man just like us, with all of our limitations, and had no more divine power than any of us do. He was completely man, and had to be so to correct the mistake of Adam. So where did his miracle working power come from? The Holy Spirit (and his obedience to the Holy Spirit). That is why his water/Spirit baptism is the logical starting point of his ministry. (Phil 2:6-7)

8) The Holy Spirit is promised to all who ask for it, the only prerequisite given is belief in Jesus. There are examples in the book of Acts of people receiving the gift of the Holy Spirit without even having yet received water baptism. (Acts 10:44-48)

9) The NT does not provide us with a standard, normative process for the outpouring of the Holy Spirit. However, it usually occurs when someone prays for someone else to receive it. (Acts 8:14-17) In all NT instances recorded where people receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit, it is accompanied by signs and wonders. Those signs include speaking in tongues, prophesying, visions, and so forth. There is nothing in the NT that states that the Holy Spirit is automatically given to a person who believes in Jesus. However, there are instances where it appears that believers are, in fact filled with the Spirit upon belief. But such instances are not the norm. (Acts 10:44-48, 11:15-18)

10) The Spirit is also a teacher, and a guide. His main purpose: to lead us into all truth. The teaching aspect of the Spirit, and its miracle working aspect are complimentary. One does not have to choose between one aspect or the other, both are available to those who desire them. The best source of orthodoxy is the Holy Spirit himself. If a believer lives a life abandoned to the Holy Spirit's guidance, it is impossible for them to be deceived about the things of God. Deception comes when the person and work of the Holy Spirit is minimized, distorted, or ignored. (1 Cor 2:1-16)

11) Throughout the NT epistles the apostles are encouraging believers to live by the Holy Spirit. Why do they do this if the Holy Spirit is already present within them? The reason has to do with the fact that the Holy Spirit does not take control of a believer. The believer is given absolute choice as to whether or not he wishes to live by the guidance of the Holy Spirit, or ignore it. The Holy Spirit is not a control mechanism, it is a truth mechanism! We must everyday, and every minute of the day, consciously choose to live by the leadings and guidance of the Holy Spirit.

12) This brings us back to the foundational issue of how to live by the Holy Spirit. First, you must pray for the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, not just assume it's present. You can even have someone pray for you to have the Spirit's indwelling. The Holy Spirit can work from the "outside" as well as the "inside." Often people mistake the outside working as indwelling. Secondly, you must listen for the Spirit's guidance and direction, and know how to discern when the Spirit is speaking, and when other voices (your own, evil spirits, etc., ) are leading you. In order to learn how to listen, you must will yourself to listen. This involves a whole different aspect of prayer than what most of us our taught. This type of prayer is listening prayer, also known by many other names. In listening prayer, you literally will yourself to tune into the Holy Spirit, and minimize those other voices that are speaking to you. The Catholic church has a wonderful tradition of contemplative prayer, where one intentionally focuses himself on God, and sits in an attitude of listening, expecting God to speak to them through the Holy Spirit. When you engage in this spiritual discipline, you will hear God speaking to you in your thoughts. You will be able to discern the truth. You will be able to know when God is speaking, and when other voices are clamoring for your attention. Listening prayer--contemplation--meditation are absolutely critical disciplines for a Christian of any denomination. But since these are not explicitly taught or commanded in Scripture, they have become the lost disciplines of Christianity. Yet without these disciplines, we cannot know that still, small voice of God within.

For the discussion, here is what I posted on the nature/nurture thread:

Thank you so very much for the opportunity to speak a little of the Holy Spirit. How I love to talk about Him! IMHO, the best Scriptures to understand the Holy Spirit are the entire Gospel of John, Romans 8 and I Corinthians 2.

But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. – John 1:12-13

The story of Nicodemus in John 3 is the example. He was a religious man, a ruler and a Pharisee, and approached Christ saying that He was special because of the miracles. Jesus, looking right into his heart knew what he really wanted to know and told him that “he must be born again” and proceeded to answer Nicodemus’ questions.

Then in John 15, Jesus describes the indwelling further explaining that He (Jesus) is the vine and we are the branches, that we can do nothing apart from Him. We must dwell in Him and He in us. At the end of that chapter and in the next, He explains that when He leaves to go to the Father, He will send the Comforter (Holy Spirit):

But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, [even] the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me: - John 15:26

Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. – John 16:7

BTW, this is an example of the Trinity - God in three persons.

But of everything the Gospel of John has to say of the Holy Spirit and the mystery of the Trinity, the most overwhelming to me is in John 17 where Christ prays for us and explains the significance:

Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; That they all may be one; as thou, Father, [art] in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me. – John 17:20-23

All of these passages are rich and should be read fully and in context. I do them a disservice by just making a few excerpts, but I didn’t wish to swamp the thread either.

In Paul’s testimony we can see the ministry of the indwelling Spirit:

But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him. But God hath revealed [them] unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.

For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned. But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.

For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ. – I Corinthians 2:9-16

All of this takes us full circle to Nicodemus – that a Christian must be born again:

[There is] therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. – Romans 8:1-5

And here are a few additional observations I just posted on the devotion thread:

When the person of the Holy Spirit is named as “Spirit” the word is capitalized both in the Old Testament and the New. References to the “Holy Ghost” are always capitalized. Likewise, the term “Comforter” is capitalized in the New Testament. But the name “Holy Spirit” is capitalized only in this passage which says that we may ask for the Holy Spirit and the Father will give Him to us:

If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall [your] heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him? - Luke 11:13

Conversely, it is possible to quench the Spirit:

Quench not the Spirit. – 1 Thessalonians 5:19

In these passages, the Spirit in heaven appears as seven fold:

John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace [be] unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne; - Revelation 1:4

And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars; I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead. – Revelation 3:1

And out of the throne proceeded lightnings and thunderings and voices: and [there were] seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God. – Revelation 4:7

And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth. – Revelation 5:6

I believe the above passages suggest (especially the last one) that God is One as described in John 17, that His persons include the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit but that there does not exist a “bright line” between them. We cannot tell where the Father ends and the Son begins because the Son is that fully surrendered to the Father. Likewise, we cannot tell where the Son ends and the Holy Spirit begins because the Holy Spirit is fully surrendered as well. And in all seven manifestations of the Spirit, we cannot tell where the one ends and the next begins.

An interesting discussion might be whether the Comforter, the Spirit of Truth, is one of the seven or the sum.

As a sidebar comment, the term spirit (not capitalized) is also a name for ministering angels:

And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him. And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire. But unto the Son [he saith], Thy throne, O God, [is] for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness [is] the sceptre of thy kingdom. – Hebrews 1:6-8

But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool? Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation? - Hebrews 1:13-14

So we who are born again have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, the Comforter, the Holy Ghost as described throughout the Gospel of John (especially chapters 3, 15, 16, 17) Romans 8 and 1 Corinthians 2 --- and we also have the help of ministering spirits. Only the Holy Spirit indwells.

A few other thoughts about the Holy Spirit...

These are passages that cause me to believe that we who have the indwelling Spirit will be raptured in advance of the Great Tribulation.

In this passage, I believe that the Holy Spirit is the one whose presence prevents the anti-Christ/false prophet from being revealed (emphasis mine):

Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and [by] our gathering together unto him, That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

Let no man deceive you by any means: for [that day shall not come], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth [will let], until he be taken out of the way.

And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: - 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8

And in this passage, I believe the oil in the lamp is a metaphor for the indwelling Holy Spirit:

Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom. And five of them were wise, and five [were] foolish. They that [were] foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them: But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps. While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept.

And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him. Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps. And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out. But the wise answered, saying, [Not so]; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves.

And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.

Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us. But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not. Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh. - Matthew 25:1-13

The final one is in Revelation 5, when the Great Tribulation begins. The Spirit is in Christ's eyes as the judgment begins. In the previous chapters, the Spirit is before the throne of God. IOW, it is as if the Holy Spirit is taken back up (and us with Him) before the judgment begins.

From your article: 11) ... the Holy Spirit does not take control of a believer. ... We must everyday, and every minute of the day, consciously choose to live by the leadings and guidance of the Holy Spirit.

12) ... you must listen for the Spirit's guidance and direction, and know how to discern when the Spirit is speaking ... In listening prayer, you literally will yourself to tune into the Holy Spirit, and minimize those other voices that are speaking to you. ... When you engage in this spiritual discipline, you will hear God speaking to you in your thoughts. You will be able to discern the truth. ... Listening prayer--contemplation--meditation are absolutely critical disciplines for a Christian of any denomination. ... without these disciplines, we cannot know that still, small voice of God within.

My compliments! Very well done!

May I also add that the influence of the still small voice of the Spirit upon us is a cumulative thing, distilling upon the soul as the dews from heaven, growing stronger and stronger as we engage quietly and consistently in that spiritual discipline of prayerful listening and living accordingly:

Deuteronomy 32:2 My doctrine shall drop as the rain, my speech shall distil as the dew, as the small rain upon the tender herb, and as the showers upon the grass:

D&C 121:45 Let thy bowels also be full of charity towards all men, and to the household of faith, and let virtue garnish thy thoughts unceasingly; then shall thy confidence wax strong in the presence of God; and the doctrine of the priesthood shall distil upon thy soul as the dews from heaven.

Book of Mormon, Helaman 3:35 Nevertheless they did fast and pray oft, and did wax stronger and stronger in their humility, and firmer and firmer in the faith of Christ, unto the filling their souls with joy and consolation, yea, even to the purifying and the sanctification of their hearts, which sanctification cometh because of their yielding their hearts unto God.

And in this passage, [Mat 25:1-13] I believe the oil in the lamp is a metaphor for the indwelling Holy Spirit...

That's an interesting analogy A-G! I've never heard of the oil being equated with the Holy Spirit before. Interesting...

I have a slightly different take on the lamps and oil: I believe they are a metaphor for preparedness. The whole thrust of the 25th chapter of Matthew is one of preparedness.

But why is Jesus telling CHRISTIANS to be prepared, if we are going to be raptured out of here? What's there to prepare for? Well, here's an interpretation of the parable of the ten virgins that's a bit disturbing, but very powerful...

The "virgins" in this parable represent what we would call bridesmaids. They are, by deffinition, friends of the bride.

The bride is always symbolic of the chruch in scriptures. So these "virgins," or "bridesmaids" are Christians. (Not just the five wise ones, but ALL TEN.)

The bridegroom is always symbolic of Jesus.

The lamps and oil represent preparedness, or even steadfastness (perseverance).

The "marriage" represents salvation, and the feast of the wedding supper of the Lamb (Jesus).

With the symbols defined, what is Jesus telling us about the Last Days and salvation? The message is simple: not all Christians will be saved. This is an absolute refutation of the "once saved, always saved" dogma. Of course this is NOT the only time or place where the dogma is refuted in scripture, there are several places throughout the NT where this warning is given, by Jesus and the Apostles.

However, Jesus also communicates to us why not all Christians will be saved: they failed to be prepared. This is not just a parable for the end-times, but for all Christians in all times.

Jesus knows who is really for him, and those who are Christian in name only. We don't even know, for sure, who these people are --though I bet we could make some rather accurate guesses! Ultimately, we are responsible for our own salvation, as the five wise virgins illustrate. When they refused to share their oil with the foolish virgins, it not that they were being stingy with their oil, but rather that they had prepared correctly for the bridegroom, and could not possibly share their preparedness with the foolish. They had taken personal responsibility for their own salvation.

This parable confirms that one thing you learn in life: you are ultimately responsible for only yourself. This does not absolve us from helping others, rather it demonstrates that each person must ultimately make their own choices.

You might be able to fool the people around you by your upright Christian behavior, but Jesus knows those who are really his, and those who are just pretending, or relying on their church affliation, or their "correct" view of doctrine and dogma.

Thank you so much for your reply and the interpretation of the parable of the ten virgins!

However, Jesus also communicates to us why not all Christians will be saved: they failed to be prepared. This is not just a parable for the end-times, but for all Christians in all times.

Indeed. The parable has to do with preparedness, not only for the rapture at the Great Tribulation, but for our own individual rapture of the Spirit in physical death. I maintain that preparedness is being born again, having the indwelling Holy Spirit:

Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. – Matthew 7:22-23

Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and [of] the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. – John 3:5-6

The theology of whether a person who is born again can be lost is another matter. On the one hand, it is possible to quench the Spirit (1 Th 5:19) and to blaspheme against Him which will not be forgiven (Matthew 12:31-32). On the other hand, Jesus assures us that noone can pluck us out of His hand. (John 10:28-29) One could conclude from all this that no force other than our own self-will (ego/pride/vanity) can separate us from Him.

For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. – Romans 8:38-39

I still maintain that the oil is the metaphor for the Holy Spirit because it is consistent throughout the Scriptures. It is used in the earthly depiction of the heavenly Temple and is associated with Light and anointing: And thou shalt command the children of Israel, that they bring thee pure oil olive beaten for the light, to cause the lamp to burn always In the tabernacle of the congregation without the vail, which [is] before the testimony, Aaron and his sons shall order it from evening to morning before the LORD: [it shall be] a statute for ever unto their generations on the behalf of the children of Israel. – Exodus 27:20-21

But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. – 1 John 1:7

There will I make the horn of David to bud: I have ordained a lamp for mine anointed. – Psalms 132:17

And thou shalt take of the blood that [is] upon the altar, and of the anointing oil, and sprinkle [it] upon Aaron, and upon his garments, and upon his sons, and upon the garments of his sons with him: and he shall be hallowed, and his garments, and his sons, and his sons' garments with him. – Exodus 29:21

And thou shalt take the anointing oil, and anoint the tabernacle, and all that [is] therein, and shalt hallow it, and all the vessels thereof: and it shall be holy. – Exodus 40:9

Then Samuel took the horn of oil, and anointed him in the midst of his brethren: and the Spirit of the LORD came upon David from that day forward. So Samuel rose up, and went to Ramah. – 1 Samuel 16:13

Thou preparest a table before me in the presence of mine enemies: thou anointest my head with oil; my cup runneth over. – Psalms 23:5

Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord: - James 5:14

But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. – Romans 8:11

Thank you oh so very much for your excellent post!!! I strongly agree with you that we are own worst enemies.

We both know of people who go to a good church, who say all the right things, who know the "lingo" of Christianity, and claim they actually believe it; but who's lives don't relfect anything but that of a selfish, egotistical, vain person who is ultimately out for only themselves and what they can get away with. Christianity is just a means to an end for them, not a lifestyle.

So very true, Ronzo! I'm pinging Thermopylae because she has experienced the same kind of situations.

On a previous devotion, I posted a meditation which is relevant to this thread concerning the Holy Spirit - more specifically, that to stay in His Light we must become transparent by surrendering self-will to His will. For anyone interested, here it is again:

Several months ago in meditating on the Cross, I had mentioned on another thread a “vision” I received in the Spirit – that of a great Light emanating from the Cross reaching to “all that there is” – all space, all time, every where, every thing – and bubbles, myriad tiny bubbles rising from the darkness [and disappearing] into the Light. It was not an interpretation of Scripture, it was an impression in worship and meditation - something that I might have painted, were I an artist.

This past weekend, that meditation continued. I was compelled to understand that the glory is the Father's, that Jesus is the brightness of His glory and that the Holy Spirit brings His glory through us. We must stay in His Light at all times.

On personal experience I would add that we must be transparent in His Light, without selfish motive. And I believe this is accomplished by "praying without ceasing" – never drifting, never becoming opaque.

Here are the passages in the meditation:

…For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen. – Matthew 6:13

Who being the brightness of [his] glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high; - Hebrews 1:3

This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth: But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. – 1 John 1:5-7

For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to [give] the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ. But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us. - 2 Corinthians 4:6-7

But ye [are] a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light: Which in time past [were] not a people, but [are] now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy. – 1 Peter 2:9-10

If we live in His Light and the Spirit shines through us, the Spirit Himself will bring forth fruits for the Father (John 15):

But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. - Galatians 5:22-23

All of these fruits are counter-indicative to ego, vanity and pride. As you say, we are our own worst enemy.

These are passages that cause me to believe that we who have the indwelling Spirit will be raptured in advance of the Great Tribulation.
In this passage, I believe that the Holy Spirit is the one whose presence prevents the anti-Christ/false prophet from being revealed (emphasis mine):

Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and [by] our gathering together unto him, That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
Let no man deceive you by any means: for [that day shall not come], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth [will let], until he be taken out of the way.
And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
- 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8

Alamo-Girl, thank you for sharing this! I do not believe in a pre-trib rapture. I used to, back years ago, but as I have been reading and studying the Bible more, I found the pre-trib rapture scenario to be unbiblical. As a matter of fact, I find it to be contrary to the plain meaning of scripture.

What is more, is that passage you quote, 1 Thessalonians 2:1-8, plainly contradicts the pre-trib position!

Paul is clearly warning the Thessalonians that there will be certain events that happen before the return of Jesus, and "our gathering together unto him" --the rapture.

As a rememdy for their confusion surrounding the "Day of the Lord," Paul gives the Thessalonians a simple outline of events that must happen first before the rapture takes place. Here is a simple outline of those things Paul mentions, in the order that he mention them:

1. "A falling away" must occur. (the word "rebellion" is used in other translations.) --People will openly deny and rebel against God, perhaps even in a violent fashion. This also might be speaking of a falling away of believers, as per Matthew 24:10.

2. "...that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition..." --this is the coming of the antichrist, and his taking power on earth.

3. "He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God..." --the antichrist will reveal his true identity, by setting himself up to be God!

4. "...he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way..." Whomever "he" is, he will be removed, so that the antichrist will have the ability to reign on earth.

5. "Even him [the antichrist], whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders..." We will know it's the antichrist because he will able to perform miraculous signs and wonders. (as so to decieve the very elect!)

Assuming what Paul is telling us is accurate, (a rather safe assumuption IMHO....) then there is no way there could possibly be a pretribulation ratpure, since Paul is clearly telling believers that the antichrist must come into power, and be enthroned as God on earth before any sort of coming of Jesus or rapture occurs.

In the pre-trib position, the revealing of the antichrist happens after the rapture, not before. But this passage from 2 Thessalonians clearly refutes that idea.

Paul is paraphrasing the outline of the end-times given by Jesus in Matthew 24 and Mark 13. The sequence of events here in 2 Thessalonians, and those two gospel accounts are identical. The antichist, and the tribulation must occur before the rapture. All three accounts are unanimous on this point.

In all three accounts where the rapture in mentioned in context with the tribulation and the antichrist, (Mt 24, Mk 13, 2Thes 2)--it is clear that there is no rapture until both the tribulation and the revealing of the antichrist have occured. Scripture is very clear on this point, there is no other way to interpret the chain of events given by either Jesus or Paul (who is just parphrasing Jesus).

What is more, both Paul and Jesus are paraphrasing and retelling the prophecies of Daniel. Specifically those things Daniel says in 7:23-28, 8:9-14, 9:26-27, 11:36-12:3. In Daniel verses 12:1-3, there is something along the lines of a rapture event. However, this comes at the end of reign of the antichrist, and after the archangel Michael "arises." In fact, the best solution for the mysterious "he" of 2 Thessalonians may be Michael, who God removes from his position of guarding Isreal so that the antichrist might come to power in Jerusalem.

In every place I look in the Bible where the rapture is mentioned in context with other end-times events, the rapture always occurs after the tribulation and after the antichrist is revealed.

Thank you so much for your reply!

I believe there are several raptures involved, not just one. In fact, the first rapture in Scriptures was Enoch (Genesis 5:24). The church of Philadelphia will be spared altogether:

Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth. – Revelation 3:10

I believe the parable of the ten virgins also indicates that not all will be taken at the pre-trib rapture. This is also apparent in Matthew 24, if the tribulation had already started, things would not be normal – at least not in the second 3.5 years.

For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two [women shall be] grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left. – Matthew 24:38-41

There is a separate rapture in Revelation 11 for the two witnesses though the martyrs start coming out of the tribulation in chapter 6.

So it is possible there is a pre-trib, mid-trib and post-trib rapture of believers.

But I hold to the pre-trib rapture for Spirit filled Christians (albeit not all who profess Christianity) for all the reasons I’ve given plus this (emphasis mine):

But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.

Therefore let us not sleep, as [do] others; but let us watch and be sober. For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night. But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.

For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, - 1 Thessalonians 5:1-9

For Lurkers still considering the various interpretations, here is 2 Thessalonians 2:1-12 which you mentioned above:

And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth [will let], until he be taken out of the way. And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

[Even him], whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Thank you so very much for the encouragement and for sharing your friend’s testimony!

I might go so far as to add that we must choose to stay in his light at all times! God will not force us to be in that light if we don't want to be.

So very, very true, Ronzo! As you say, we are our own worst enemy. It is so easy to drift under the pull of the distractions of this life - or to stiffen up and become opaque from our own self centeredness. And that’s people who are aware of the Light and have a desire to be there. Worse yet is that many people actually love the darkness as the Scriptures say:

And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God. – John 3:19-21

IMHO, that romantic love of darkness has even become part of our culture; I wonder how many realize the danger in it.

The lyrics to the song Sound of Silence are a good example for me. In this instance, the first person loves the darkness but disrespects the others in the darkness with him because they talk without speaking and hear without listening. He also knows that the “light” they worship is false, a fabrication. Tragically, he has a seed of Truth which makes him feel much alone in the darkness, but because he loves the darkness he doesn’t even considering leaving it to enter the true Light. The lyrics fascinate me and leave me wondering if Paul Simon understood this meaning when he wrote them at 3 in the morning.

When the real, simple gospel message is presented, it's a powerful thing! Who would say no to it? But then how often do we hear the simply message of the gospel being preached???

Indeed. The Gospel is the power of God (Romans 1:16) - yet many who preach don’t seem to understand. Too often the message is embellished or replaced with pseudo-intellectualisms. Sigh…

Again, I find that I have posted something on another thread which is relevant to this discussion as well, so I'm copying it here. This goes to the ministry of the Holy Spirit in revealing God beyond what is written in the Scriptures:

As mentioned previously, the warning in Revelation applies to the book of Revelation (“prophesy of this book”).

However, I certainly agree with you that any prophesy or revelation of the Holy Spirit will never contradict the written Scriptures and that is the Berean test:

These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so. – Acts 17:11

However, again I aver the Bible is inerrant and reveals God truly, but not fully. Here is the difference as explained by Christ (emphasis mine):

And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.

And ye have not his word abiding in you: for whom he hath sent, him ye believe not.

Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. – John 5:37-39

We already know from the Scriptures themselves that some things which could have been written therein have been withheld from us according to God’s will:

And when the seven thunders had uttered their voices, I was about to write: and I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Seal up those things which the seven thunders uttered, and write them not. – Revelation 10:4

But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, [even] to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased. – Daniel 12:4

This is the disciple which testifieth of these things, and wrote these things: and we know that his testimony is true. And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen. – John 21:24-25

For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known. – 1 Corinthians 13:12

The reason for this goes back to Jesus’ explanation above (John 5) --- which is to say, we must rely on the indwelling Holy Spirit for understanding, because the natural man cannot receive it:

For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned. But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.

For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ. – 1 Corinthians 2:9-16

This is truly a crucial word of warning:

...the reason for this goes back to Jesus’ explanation above (John 5) --- which is to say, we must rely on the indwelling Holy Spirit for understanding, because the natural man cannot receive it...

So true! Our intellectual understanding of the Word is so inadequate! It is necessary to understand the word from the aspect of natural, or normal understanding, but this should only be a "launching pad" for further, deeper understanding of the Word of God.

You can tell when someone, even a very experienced Chrisitan, has a mosty intellectual vs. spiritual understanding of the Word. The spiritual understanding does not mean intellectual understanding is no longer necessary, rather spiritual (really Holy Spirit guided understanding) builds on that intellectual understanding, and goes beyond it, without ever contradicting it.

However, that does not give us licensce to connoct meanings and interpretations that are nothing more than speculations dressed up as spiritual revelation. I see this sort of stunt pulled all too often amongst my friends and brothers in the LORD. It's as if the plain meaning of scripture isn't adequate, and they feel this bizzare need to go beyond what is written. I see that sort of thing on a nearly everyday basis.

Another error I see too often is taking obvious allegorical and metaphorical pasages as literal, and taking literal passages as being allegorical and metaphorical. There are times where this is a valuable thing to do, but there are very distinct boundaries concerning how far we can go with this.

For instance, there is no problem with taking the life of Joseph, as described in the book of Genesis, and seeing his life as a type of Christ. As a matter of fact, one could go so far as say it was intended to be a type for Jesus. However, if one takes the story of Joseph and it makes it into an allegory in support of capitalism (or even communism!), that would be going beyond the bounds of good interpretation, because the intent of the Joseph narrative is to help us understand the mind and plans of God, not indoctrinate us into policital, ecomonic ideologies.

Our duty as Christians is also compared to a watchman upon the tower. Those who are not watchful, prayerful, and vigilant become slothful, sloppy, lazy, and neglect their duty, and the enemy comes upon them when they are unaware and does great harm.

Excellent point White Mt. This goes along with the 33rd chapter of Ezekiel, which is one of my favorites in the OT. But according to Ezekiel, we are not just to be watchman for ourselves, but also to warn others as God puts it on our heart to do so.

We had a really good Saturday morning Bible study about this very topic: "What does it mean to 'keep watch?'" We came to the conclusion, looking at how that phrase 'keep watch' is used by Jesus, that it is nothing more than encouragement to be ready for whenever Jesus should decide to return. And that does not just mean his literal, physical return to earth, but speaks more to being ready to die. Some of us know in advance the approximate time of our death, and this is the grace of God to have this knowledge. But many do not have this knowledge, and so there death comes unexpectedly, and they have made no preperations to 'meet their maker.' For those who aren't ready, they will find themselves wishing they had been...

Then the conversation turned to what it means to "be ready." The youngest memeber of the group had the best, most succint answer: you have to 'walk the talk.' Or, to put it a little more clearly, you must live by the words of the Good Book on an everyday basis, to the best of your ability, and continually make it a priority in your life to do so. Of course we are not perfect beings, and we make mistakes all the time. We cannot possibly live accourding to the high morality of the Bible on our own. That's why God gives us the gift of the Holy Spirit. By his enabling power, we can live up to the standards that God gives, and even surpass them! That is why the Holy Spirit is of foundational importance in a Christian's life.

This is a reply to a related but contentious discussion from the devotional thread at post 28 over there. I brought it here because contention does not belong on a devotion:

AG , this is not about searching the scripture to confirm some secret personal revelation . This is clearly speaking to the Bereans searching the Jewish Canon for evidence that the Gospel being presented to them by the disciples was indeed prophesied.

I respectfully assert that the passage is relevant to us today. To the Bereans, it would indeed be “searching the scripture to confirm some secret personal revelation.” The Scripture known to them at the time contained less than what is Scripture to us today. But we are following their “noble” footsteps when we receive “the word with all readiness of mind” and search “the scriptures daily, whether those things” are so.

This is not about personal revelation AG it is about their inability to hear or see the evidence of Christ through the clear witness sent by God.

Again, I respectfully disagree. Christ said the reason they did not believe is that they “have not his word abiding in you”. So He told them to “search the scriptures” because they believed in them. It is very much a personal revelation when the word abides in us.

This again is not saying that there is any further personal revelation.. you are reading things into the word to defend your position

Again, I respectfully disagree. The revelation in Daniel 12:4 was personal, it was to Daniel. The revelation in Revelation 10:4 was personal, it was to John.

What was with held and why ? Most agree that what was withheld was a sight so terrible that believers could become fearful instead of hopeful, not some personal secret revelation

Then I do not share the majority view. Then again, perfect love casts out all fear.

There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love. – 1 John 4:18

You continued…

But neither of these scriptures that you have chosen to link together (even though they actually cover different topics ) in any way hint that there is any further personal revelation that will come short of the time we stand in Glory and see Him face to face.

I couldn’t possibly disagree with you more. My entire walk with Christ for the last 44 years has been an ongoing personal revelation through the indwelling Holy Spirit.

Prophesy is not simply foresight, it is also insight. The Holy Spirit is alive and well on the planet earth:

But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy: And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke: The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come:

And it shall come to pass, [that] whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved. – Acts 2:17-21

Now that does not mean to say that every time someone professes to have a special insight or foresight that it is Truth, i.e. from God. The discernment of Truth is the ministry of the Holy Spirit. Searching the Scriptures can only take a believer so far. The Word, the Truth, lives within you and confirms or rejects what you hear and read:

And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; [Even] the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. – John 14:16-17

Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, [that] shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew [it] unto you. All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew [it] unto you. – John 16:13-15

Your next remark sheds much Light on the difference between us:

It is an interesting observation that this chapter actually says that the spiritual gifts of the early church will disappear , that what will remain is faith ,hope and charity

Evidently you believe that spiritual gifts disappeared with the early church. And yet I am the happy recipient of many such gifts of the Spirit and know Him to be very much alive and gift giving in this age.

AG do you know what Gnosticism is ?

It is a catch-all term used by many doctrines to condemn perceived heresies. The history of the term is most informative. But in common usage it only amounts to a pejorative.

You conclude:

There is a very fine line between the illumination of the Holy Spirit on scripture as we read and the seeking and the belief in personal revelation that somehow completes the word of God . We must be very careful not to fall into that heresy.

Again, we differ on the Word of God. You see the “word of God” as the written Scriptures. As I explained in post 21, I know the Word of God personally. He is alive from the beginning to the end; He is Jesus Christ. He indwells in the person of the Holy Spirit. Certainly, it is impossible for any mortal to “complete the word of God” – He is God!

But more to the point of whole discussion, you are rightfully concerned about people like Joseph Smith, the Pope, Jim Jones and many others who declare to have a personal revelation from God, the only true doctrine and compel others to follow their leader.

But I would put anyone who asks others to follow himself or his private revelation rather than God in exactly the same bucket and that is why I eschew all doctrine and traditions of men – including Calvin and Arminius and seemingly neverending authorities and commentators.

I assert that we must focus utterly on the Great Commandments – to love God absolutely and everyone else unconditionally. We must let nothing whatsoever obscure our view of God. No doctrine, tradition, authority or mortal must get in between unless the Father personally establishes it which He did in Jesus Christ, the Holy Spirit and the Scriptures.

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MY TWELVE THESES OF THE HOLY SPIRIT