Freedom of Speech and the pursuit of a conspiracy theorist

Email | 1/8/2002 | Email

[Mixer]

The following is an excerpt from an email conversation that I had with a conspiracy theorist and former FReeper. I was wondering what your opinions are of the conversation.

Me: In response to your comments......

Headline from this person's website: "1/7/03 German man prosecuted for internet remark!

His after comment on the website: "Freedom of speech? We don't need no stinkin' freedom of speech!""

My email to him: I say to you....stop being a jackass this guy was arrested in Germany, this has nothing to do with free speech in America. Stop trying to brainwash your loyal readers......

His posted reply on his website: The Bill of Rights does not grant freedom of speech to Americans, it merely recognizes it as a universal right that applies to all people everywhere.

Final thought to self after seeing his reply:I was unaware that OUR bill of rights or laws provided universal rights to all people outside of America?????

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[Mixer]

Perhaps my comments to him were unjust? Perhaps there is a lot more I need to know before I make comments like this again? Any help would be appreciated because at this point I am really just rather confused by his reply to me more then anything.

[Mixer]

Here is an FR thread that discusses the very topic.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/818605/posts

[End Times Sentinel]

We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

This Former Freeper is an idiot. Don’t waste your time with him/her/it.

Just out of curiosity, what was this Freeper’s handle?

Owl_Eagle

”Guns Before Butter.”

[JohnGalt]

The concept of rights was a machination of the Enlightenment period and the concept of universal rights, is a liberal concept.

Rights, to realists, are just things protected by tradition and culture. Since their is a limited tradition of free speech in Germany, it would be hard to call this a violation of German rights.

[D. Miles]

I'd not loose any sleep over this. Germany has limited rights in everything they do. So far, we're way ahead of them...but, for how long ,now seems to be the important question.

[Dust in the Wind]

"The Bill of Rights does not grant freedom of speech to Americans, it merely recognizes it as a universal right that applies to all people everywhere."

What is so hard to understand about the difference between granted and recognize? I recognize you have the ability to breath air but I sure cannot grant you that right anymore than any government can grant you the right to talk. All governments can do with speech is to take away your ability by force.

[FreeTheHostages]

"This Former Freeper is an idiot"

I concur with this heartless, deadly accurate analysis.

[conservatism_IS_compassion]

The Declaration of Independence is a claim of the universality of the right to independent action, never mind indepent thought. The Bill of Rights is merely a particular statement of individual rights; it is public knowledge and thus in principle knowable to anyone worldwide--but its writ runs only in the United States, and then only to the extent that we-the-people understand and uphold it.

Given the particulars of German history, the use of NAZI symbols is banned. That ban does not necessarily violate the spirit of the First Amendment, in that Nazism is rejection of the First Amendment--hence rejection in principle of the freedom of others. The Constitution is not pacifist; it provides for a Department of War in recognition precisely of the fact that society must protect itself from actual dangers.

[Mixer]

My question was....Why would American Laws (or what America recognizes) apply to people who live in Germany and are arrested in Germany.

It isn't as if the guy was arrested at a computer terminal in the NYC public library.

[Hank Kerchief]

The Bill of Rights does not grant freedom of speech to Americans, it merely recognizes it as a universal right that applies to all people everywhere.

This is absolutely correct. The Constitution does not create any rights. Rights define what is appropriate for mankind. The Constitiution, and specifically the Bill of Rights is only a recognition of rights which are man's by his very nature.

"We hold these Truths to be self-evident, that all Men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness--That to secure these Rights, Governments are instituted..." [---The Declaration of Independence]

This is the principle of rights our government is based on. Other governments may not recognize or secure those rights, that does not mean the rights cease to exist, only that the governments are tyrannies.

Hank

[dansangel]

was unaware that OUR bill of rights or laws provided universal rights to all people outside of America?????

They don't - as was stated in a post further up, we recognize these rights out in the reminder of the world, but we don't have the power to impose them on anyone else. The Bill of Rights is strictly an American document for Americans.

In plain English, that former FReeper (Thank GOD he's "former") is a horse's rear end and a moron. Unfortunately, because Civics and Government are no longer taught as they should be, merely taught in the government schools are "suggestions" or "touchy-feely" concepts, this moron will find a whole pack of ignorant sheeple to hang on his every misguided word.

{{{{{{{MIXER}}}}}}}}}

[Mixer]

Other governments may not recognize or secure those rights, that does not mean the rights cease to exist, only that the governments are tyrannies

That was my whole point. This person was arrested outside of America yet this website was crying out for the freedom of speech that America allows, not Germany.

[Dust in the Wind]

It is not "American law" you are questioning. "We hold these truths to be self evident that all men are endowed by their creator . . ."
It is not a question of who grants or recognizes it if it is a universal truth which we do recognize in our Bill of Rights.. You notice they could not stop him from speaking the first time. Only after they have arrested him is he stopped from using that particular forum. Unless they have taped or sewn his mouth shut they still have not stopped him. They can only remove him from an audience by force.

[Mixer]

They don't - as was stated in a post further up, we recognize these rights out in the reminder of the world, but we don't have the power to impose them on anyone else.

This is the type of response that I was expecting, and knew in my heart was correct, but was looking for verification, because Mixer does not know everything....Thanks Dansy {{{{{{{HUGS}}}}}}

[dansangel]

Mixer does not know everything....

None of us do, dear Mixer. But you know a lot more than you give yourself credit for.

You questioned something that sounded very wrong - always a great step in the right direction! :-)

PS....I thought of something else that goes to our exchange yesterday....Shamrocks in March (for your tree!) LOL!!

[Dust in the Wind]

IMO you are still seeing it as a granted ability by government rather than by a creator. (This is why the power mongers want it as a granted right, they want the creators power.) America nor any other government has the ability to allow me or any other human the right to speak. They can only disallow it.

That is what makes the difference no matter where you are on this earth. It is written into our American institutions especialy for American citizens but at the same time we recognize it as universal

[Mixer]

You questioned something that sounded very wrong - always a great step in the right direction! :-)

When I emailed the guy I knew what he was trying to do (get a rise out of his readers) then he responded which confused me futher and I always know I can get help from FReepers.

If I do this whole thing I will end up putting firecrackers on it for the 4th of July and lighting them off after dark : ) However I think we need to have a list for an item every month and post it in the FR Finest thread.

[dansangel]

However I think we need to have a list for an item every month and post it in the FR Finest thread.

That's a great idea! We could have some ***fun*** with that!

[Hank Kerchief]

That was my whole point. This person was arrested outside of America yet this website was crying out for the freedom of speech that America allows, not Germany.

Everyone ought to cry out for free speech, and for every other freedom everywhere. Do we only seek freedoms governments allow? What if the founders of this country took that attitude. "Well, the government we are under does not allow us to be free from taxation, therefore we should not cry out for it."

Hank

[Mixer]

Everyone ought to cry out for free speech, and for every other freedom everywhere

I agree but doesn't that then fall under the term "globalism"? We are trying to free countries like Iraq from the tyrants that run them and we are called globalists, yet I hear your words as saying we should try to change laws that Germany has put upon their people. Where is the logic in this? Correct me if I am quoting you wrong. That is not my intention.