Market's late rebound may revive manipulation rumors

San Diego Union Tribune ^ | Don Bauder

[Joe Hadenuf]

LOL!

[AntiScumbag]

you are correct, there is no such thing as the ppt, it is nothing except the flakey invention of the perpetual conspiracy crowd who don't understand markets and need something on which to place blame for things that mystify them

beyond the conspiracy garbage, the amount of sheer ignorance on this and virtually all other threads having anything to do with markets is astounding

the general public is unaware of the large amounts of hedge and other aggressive fund money that moves in and out of short-term trades

the general public is unaware that "program trading" is the result of arbitrage between futures and cash and has no net effect across all markets

the general public is unaware of the fact that markets never move in a straight line for long and that a 400 point short-covering rally after a 1,200 point decline is not only completely normal, but something to be expected, and it could continue and still be nothing more than another bear market blip

i could go on and on, but it will be lost on the tin-foil hat crowd and others who haven't a clue about markets

[Wait4Truth]

Ping!

[dennisw]

PPT bumpski.

[discostu]

It spells out how they CAN. The only listing of anything this "group" is known to do is turn off the markets for a while when things go crazy and let everybody breathe. Listing off what can be done is not proof of something. The aritcle proves nothing.

All I'm suggesting is that if you've got a group manipulating the markets the least interesting or useful thing they would do is just stop dramatic plunges. If you've got somebody powerful and smart enough to swing the Dow as dramatically as we saw yesterday afternoon then there's an implication that these people should be powerful and smart enough to have kept that major dip from happening at all, and it's a gimme that they would be able to keep the massive decline we've seen this year from happening. Why only do the most transparent and least useful manipulation? Why not the much more subtle and useful practice of simply not letting things drop seriously or steadily? Why paint with broad strokes when precision work will do the job so much better?

[Jackie]

To: The Manipulators

The Fed and/or Treasury call the big houses on Wall Street and tell them to buy index futures and options.

Just let it go! Let the market find its bottom. Stop delaying the inevitable.

[CecilRhodesGhost]

Between 1971 and 1976 the debt in US rose from $409 billion to $631 billion. Then debt experienced its greatest growth during the 1980s, fueled by an unprecedented peacetime military buildup. In 1996, the Outstanding Public Debt roared past $5 trillion. The unconstitutional "share" of this debt for every American man, woman and child is currently $18,883.02 and will continue to increase, along with individual credit card debts, mortgages, automobile leases and so on. It's just the way things work in today's corporate-led world. Understand that the Fed is realizing a dream that bankers have held since time began. It's a good thing for some. Today, the world stands before the dawn of a new global community, run by mega-corporations and internationalist financiers. Most of the revenue collected by the US government in the form of individual income taxes will go straight to paying the interest on the debt alone. And as borders stay open to expand trade, the governments will break and crash because of the welfare state, immigrant education and healthcare demands. So people will look at government as a failure and run to the bank-led new order of things. At the rate the debt is increasing, eventually we'll reach a point where, even if the government takes every penny of its citizens' income via taxation, it will still not collect enough to keep up with the interest payments... much less care for the troubles caused by NAFTA, open borders and free-trading mega-corps. The government will own nothing, the people will own nothing, and the global banks and corporations will own everything. The new order of things will foreclose on America just as it is on the EU, and Asia. The trilateral thread will be complete!

PS- this all was planned a long time ago, even before the League of Nations.

[Myrnick]

I agree, we are probably looking at approaching bottom. The interesting thing about yesterday's action was the volume and the inflows to the bond market. Volume was not much more than average and inflows to bonds were not unusually high. What this says to me is that institutional investors were not taking money off the table yesterday (which, when they do they usually go to bonds). I think what we saw was small investor capitulation with short covering and some institutional buying in the last 90 minutes of the day.

[cynicom]

You mean, the big guys don't play fair??? Who would have ever thought that?

[dennisw]

You perfectly explained the PPT. Their mission is to smooth out declines, to minimize the negative and cynical psychology. To keep declines from spiraling out of control...Fine example being the 1987 drop of 500 in the DOW. PPT smoothed out the next trading day to help out investor confidence.

It's one thing to see DOW 5,000 this September and another to see DOW 5,000 two years from now. It's best for bubbles to be deflated slowly.

[Joe Hadenuf]

and that a 400 point short-covering rally after a 1,200 point decline is not only completely normal, but something to be expected

LOL! And that's exactly why I am out of the stock market. When I feel like living on the edge, I will crawl out on the ledge of the nearest high rise building and put on my roller skates...

[eno_]

It spells out how they CAN.

You are correct. So let's trust the government not to (cough, splutter).

[discostu]

Did I say anything about trusting the government? Nope. Read the rest of the post, I expect better than this from you eno_, while we rarely agree you're usually a good opponent.

[spoiler2]

Notice how nobody objected to the PPT's work during the last two years of the Clinton watch?

That's when the initial heavy propping-up occurred, moving judgement day to a post yr-2000 date.

[arete]

The market was full of bargains yesterday.

Oh, look at that, it is full of bargins again today. Holy smoke, get my broker on the phone!

Richard W.

[arete]

Yes it was manipulated by millions of Americans who chose to NOT SELL their Mutual funds

Now if you really want to show us what a great American you are, you will not only hold on to your shares, but you will invest more. Now is the time to stand up and be counted.

Richard W.

[discostu]

Down 166 today. That's around -2000 for the year and -210 for the week. Man that PPT sure are fantastic aren't they?

[arete]

Man that PPT sure are fantastic aren't they?

I'm not sure exactly what you are expecting. I think that they have done a very good job of managing the decline and preventing a shocking crash. Now, if you are just PO'ed because the bubble is being deflated, the PPT isn't going to be much help. All things considered, the reduction in market values, personal wealth, and exaggerated expectations has been orderly. Greenspan's Boys have been right on top of it.

Richard W.

[VRWC_minion]

The market is the sum total of manipulation by all parties, by definition.

[discostu]

As I've said. I think that if there were such a thing the kind of blatant stuff like yesterday's rally is the least useful thing they could possibly do. If there's a group manipulating the market then there's absolutely no reason for it to go down ever. That's the big thing missing from the PPT theory, why? Why allow the market to go down but not allow it to go down fast? Why control the rate of descent if the same tools can be used to avoid descent? Why use the tools in such an ineffective way? Nobody knows if a gradual decline in the market will be better than a quick crash, what were the long term effect of the '87 crash? The '99 one day crash? Compare that to the long term effect of having the market flatline for 20 years. It just doesn't make sense, if you have the tools to control the market to the tune of a 350 point 2 hour rise in the Dow why would you allow what's been going on all year?

And a 2 day 200 point drop ain't orderly.