Muslim Community Speaks Out

WTLV-12 ^ | 06/14/02 | WTLV-12

[tutstar]

JACKSONVILLE, FL - After maintaining silence for several days the local Muslim community is finally speaking out about the controversy created by Reverend Jerry Vines earlier in the week at the Southern Baptist Convention.

Islamic Center President Shakur Bolden addressed the public Friday in an attempt to undo the damage done to the Muslim community. Bolden began by asking his followers "How can one be demon possessed and tell us to live in peace and harmony? Is that a demon possessed person?"

The questions he asked stemmed from the comments made by Reverend Jerry Vines. Said Vines, "Islam was founded by Mohammed, a demon-possessed pedophile who had 12 wives and his last one was a 9 year old girl."

In his sermon before a packed mosque, Bolden took special aim not so much at the words Vines used by Vines but at the ignorance that fueled them. He chastised Vines for speaking about a culture he knows little of and perhaps for knowing even less of his own.

Said Bolden, "If we were even to read the history of our country, the United States of America, we would find that up to a hundred years ago, marriage was legal at the age of ten."

In addition to addressing followers of the Muslim faith on Friday, a full page ad will run in the Florida Times Union on Saturday and will feature a letter from Bolden to the Reverend Vines. The letter talks about how offensive Vines' language was to all Muslims and asks him to clear the air by meeting with Bolden.

Muslims say that they are concerned about the damage that could be done from the comments that the Reverend made. Tahirah Abdullah said, "I wish he had been a little bit more sensitive in the words that he used. I think pedophile is a strong word. I don't know why he did that but I hope he learns." Hafez Assali added, "We hope everyone understands to respect to one another and not to rush to a quick judgment."

In the meantime, Reverend Jerry Vines is preparing to speak to his congregation for the first time since he made the controversial comments, this Sunday. You can watch Vines' sermon live Sunday at 10:30am on WTLV12.

[tutstar]

This is a real piece of work. Looks like things are not going to be calm here for a while.

[twntaipan]

Comments about Muhammad originate in key Islamic source, profs say
By Norm Miller & Joni B. Hannigan
Jun 13, 2002

Click here to Download Story

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Former Muslims speak at press conference
Scholars Ergun Caner, right, and his brother, Emir, answer questions from reporters during a news conference hosted by Baptist Press as the SBC met in its 145th session in St. Louis' America's Center. The Caners wrote "Unveiling Islam: An Insider's Look at Muslim Life and Beliefs," a new book by Kregel Publications. Ergun is assistant professor of theology and church history at Criswell College, Dallas. Emir is assistant professor of church history and Anabaptist studies at Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary, Wake Forest, N.C. by Van Payne

ST. LOUIS (BP)--Two former Muslims responded June 12 to complaints from Islamic groups that a speaker's comments at the Southern Baptist Pastors' Conference in St. Louis were "bigoted" and "hateful."

National media have widely reported that Jerry Vines, pastor of First Baptist Church, Jacksonville, Fla., described Muhammad as a "demon-possessed pedophile" during a June 10 sermon and that Vines inferred that Islam teaches the destruction of non-Muslims.

Clarifying that Vines not only quoted from their recent book, "Unveiling Islam," Emir and Ergun Caner said Vines also quoted from the Hadith, a highly respected source for Islamic teaching among Muslim clerics and followers worldwide. The Hadith itself verifies that Muhammad married a 6-year-old girl and consummated the marriage when she was 9, the professor-brothers said.

"It's simply a matter of quoting [Islamic] sources," said Emir Caner, an assistant professor of church history and Anabaptist studies at Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary in Wake Forest, N.C. "If we are wrong in our understanding of the Islamic scriptures, we would be happy to be corrected."

The specific Hadith citation concerning Muhammad's pedophilia is in volume 7, book 6, number 64 and 65, said Ergun Caner, an assistant professor of theology and church history at Criswell College in Dallas.

Both Emir and Ergun Caner were Sunni Muslims who became Christians in 1982.

"The comments in question cannot be considered bigotry when they come from Islamic writings," Ergun Caner said.

A lengthy passage from the Hadith, volume 1, book 1, chapter 1, shows that Muhammad himself believed he was under demonic influence, but it notes that Muhammad's wife is the one who deemed his experience as "divine," Ergun Caner said.

Concerning terrorism and Islamic jihad, Emir Caner noted variant interpretations by Muslims themselves. Some see jihad as a "spiritual war," and others, "physical," he said.

"Some Muslims want to allegorize their own scriptures because they don't want to defend jihad," Emir Caner said. "But if you take the Koran at its word, or Muhammad at his word, then you'll find physical jihad."

The highest level of Muslim heaven -- which has 70 perpetual virgins on couches -- is reserved for Muslims who "shed their blood," said Ergun Caner said, referencing Hadith 135.

Islam's tilt toward violence, Emir Caner said, also is reflected in the Koran: "Slay the enemy where you find him, Surah 9.92," whereas Christians are commanded to love their enemies.

"A so-called Christian who bombs an abortion clinic or shoots an abortionist and says God told him to do it does that act against the Bible," Ergun Caner said. "But the Muslim who commits acts of violence in jihad does so with the approval of Muhammad.

"When 9/11 happened, we were all shocked. But where was the international outrage when jihad killed 3 million people in Sudan?" Ergun Caner asked.

As former Sunni Muslims, the Caners cite the major differences between Islam and Christianity as the "personalness" of God, and "grace as opposed to works."

"Jesus Christ ... is ultimately personal and wants to have a relationship with me," Ergun Caner said.

The Koran says Allah "is as close as your jugular vein, which is a place of fear, not of faith," Emir Caner said. "As Muslims, grace was a foreign word to us," he said, having noted in an earlier interview that the only way a Muslim can be assured of heaven outside of dying in jihad is whether his good works outweigh his bad ones.

"So do my beliefs dictate that good Muslims will go to hell?" Ergun Caner asked. "The answer to that is: Good Southern Baptists will go to hell. The issue at hand is not one of religious practice, it is one of personal relationship."

Christianity is "exclusivistic" in its claims, but universal in its appeal to others, Ergun Caner said. Christianity versus Islam is not a "we win, you lose" outcome, he said. "We want to tell all Muslims everywhere that they can be freed from 'scales of Islam.'"

He noted, "Our culture is suffering the Oprah-ization of America, or the idea that we all just need one big Oprah group hug and there will be peace.

"But I say there will never be peace, not in Jerusalem, not in the Holy Land, not until the Prince of Peace, Jesus Christ, comes back."
--30--
(BP) photo posted in the BP Photo Library at http://www.bpnews.net. Photo title: FORMER MUSLIMS SPEAK AT PRESS CONFERENCE.



[ ]

[Shooter 2.5]

"Said Bolden, "If we were even to read the history of our country, the United States of America, we would find that up to a hundred years ago, marriage was legal at the age of ten."

Legal maybe, moral no. I don't recall any of my American heroes marrying anyone in their teens. Most of them made their start in the world, became successful and then married someone their own age. And only one wife.

[Torie]

Vines' comments were execrable. Islam is not above criticism, but to call Mohammed a demon possessed pedophile is a subjective comment, incendiary, and achieves no useful purpose.

[TLBSHOW]

Islam is a fake religion. False. Islam is the enemy!

[galt-jw]

well, the muslims DID manage to speak out...but never in regards to condemning resoundingly islamic terror...so shut your pie hole, lizard.

[Sabertooth]

The questions he asked stemmed from the comments made by Reverend Jerry Vines. Said Vines, "Islam was founded by Mohammed, a demon-possessed pedophile who had 12 wives and his last one was a 9 year old girl."

In his sermon before a packed mosque, Bolden took special aim not so much at the words Vines used by Vines but at the ignorance that fueled them. He chastised Vines for speaking about a culture he knows little of and perhaps for knowing even less of his own.

Said Bolden, "If we were even to read the history of our country, the United States of America, we would find that up to a hundred years ago, marriage was legal at the age of ten."

Doesn't sound like a denial to me.

[Mo1]

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[RightWhale]

marriage was legal at the age of ten

Not only that, but a person could be King of England or Pharoah of Egypt at an early age. This was usually followed by being a former King or Pharoah, still at an early age.

[tutstar]

pinging to the latest, text of the ad appearing in tomorrow's paper will be posted next.

[tutstar]

Ooooooo, excellent find. Why didn't I think to look there?

[concerned about politics]

- After maintaining silence for several days the local Muslim community is finally speaking out about the controversy created by Reverend Jerry Vines earlier in the week at the Southern Baptist Convention.

Have they set a date to speak out about Bin Ladin yet? They haven't? Why not? Maybe the Minister was right, aye?

"How can one be demon possessed and tell us to live in peace and harmony? Is that a demon possessed person?"

He's talking about himself, right? Kill the infidel? Isn't that what they believe? Doersn't that make them the demons? Huh?

In addition to addressing followers of the Muslim faith on Friday, a full page ad will run in the Florida Times Union on Saturday and will feature a letter from Bolden to the Reverend Vines. The letter talks about how offensive Vines' language was to all Muslims and asks him to clear the air by meeting with Bolden.

Typical liberalism. Use the politics of personal destruction. Boy, these folks take their terrorism training seriously. Hillary must be their new U.S. Allah, aye?

I sure hope the Baptists hold their guns up on this one. Truth is truth. If it's too politically incorrect for the thought police, too bad!!

[blackbart.223]

"The highest level of Muslim heaven -- which has 70 perpetual virgins on couches -- is reserved for Muslims who "shed their blood"

Sounds like a con game to me. Promise somthing you won't have to deliver. And the dead guy won't come come back and complain.

[browardchad]

In light of the slaughter of millions of Christians worldwide in the name of Islam, I thought Vines' comments were quite moderate -- and historically factual. Political correctness will most surely result in our imminent demise.

I wonder how many death-threats Vines has gotten from the disciples of the "religion of peace?" He would be wise to watch his back, given the history of Mohammed's disciples.

[moteineye]

Calling Mohammed a pedophile is not a subjective opinion.He was a grown man married to a nine year old girl.As far as being demon-possessed one might wonder.Vines was right.

[weegee]

Sorry, I was misled to this thread by the headline. I thought that the muslim community had finally decided it worthy of their time to speak out against the suicide bombers in Palestine, Al-Quaida, the Taliban, OBL, etc.

Are they denying that the statement made was accurate?

[muawiyah]

I'm happy you feel that way. My own family's genealogical records do not support that view. Out on the frontier girls got married early. Many men had more than one wife, frequently at the same time, particularly Swiss immigrants (as one notable group).

People reproduced as best they could and marriage frequently had less to do with sex than it did with raw survival.

Should you have early Jewish-Americans in the line, you will immediately notice they married their cousins, and at early ages, there frequently being no other persons to marry. Or, if you have Mennonites, you will find the same thing.

Then, there are the American Indians - lucky to find a formal marriage there, even if there are records.

Do not judge the past, particularly the ancient past, by your own modern standards which arise out of a condition of wealth and leasure. In olden times farms needed worked, fields ploughed, cows milked, the elderly in the family needed attendants, and the only way you got those folks was to "grow your own".

[evolved_rage]

"The highest level of Muslim heaven -- which has 70 perpetual virgins on couches "

So you earn your way to heaven only to be perpetually tortured by the presence of these Virgins.
Perpetual torture...now that rings a bell...Who could provide eternal torture...

[concerned about politics]

Dr. Vines also quoted from the Hadith, a respected source for Islamic teaching among Muslim clerics and followers worldwide. Upon examination, the Hadith verifies that Muhammad did marry the nine-year-old daughter of a friend. The girl, named Aisha, became known as the “mother of believers.”

A lengthy passage from the Hadith, volume 1, book 1, chapter 1, shows that Muhammad himself believed he was under demonic influence, but it notes that Muhammad’s wife is the one who deemed his experience as “divine,” said Ergun.

Thread here