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Police Weapons Prove Vexing for a British Town
New York Times ^ | 6/02/02 | SARAH LYALL

Posted on 06/01/2002 11:24:11 PM PDT by kattracks


MANCHESTER, England — The gun startled John Moss.

He had never seen one in broad daylight before, not on the streets of south Manchester. The fact that the weapon in question, a 9-millimeter Glock semiautomatic pistol, was being carried by a police officer on patrol and not a criminal made its presence, if anything, more jarring.

"I am not in favor of all police officers being armed," said Mr. Moss, 40, a storekeeper who lives in the rough Longsight neighborhood, where gun crime is as bad as anywhere in Britain but where officers usually carry only batons, handcuffs and a pepperlike spray meant to disorient suspects.

"I don't know much about America — only what you see on the telly — but that's the direction they're going," Mr. Moss said. "I think that violence promotes violence, and if you find the police carrying guns, they'll be more accessible and more crimes will be committed with guns."

By putting armed officers in two of its most violent neighborhoods, Manchester's force has become one of the first in England to give guns to officers walking the beat.

The new patrols represent an effort to address a vexing problem: how to deal with increasingly vicious criminals in a nation where much of the public, and most officers themselves, have opposed the routine arming of the police.

"The public has a cozy image of the firm, fair and friendly police officer," said Mike McBride, the editor of Jane's Police and Security Equipment, an annual compendium of police equipment around the world.

"It's a fallacy that we've got an unarmed police service," Mr. McBride said. "It's just that we haven't routinely armed police officers before."

Like other police forces in England, Manchester's has used guns since the 1980's. But it has deployed them reactively, giving them to selected specialists for specific operations and instructing officers to use them only as a last resort.

The force began the new armed patrols — an experimental pilot program — as part of a multipronged effort to rein in some of the city's most violent gangs.

"The use of guns, and the access to guns, is much more widespread than in the past, and the criminals are prepared to go to far more risks," said Chief Superintendent Adrian Lee of the Manchester police force.

In recent months two suspects have fired machine guns in the street, 20 to 30 rounds each time. On another occasion a 70-year-old woman was shot and wounded in the crossfire of a gang-related melee.

But even Superintendent Lee is vehemently opposed to the routine arming of his officers. "It ups the ante, doesn't it?" he said. "If we armed every police officer in south Manchester, the public would get the message that it's a very dangerous place and that the only way to deal with it is guns. And if we're armed, then more criminals are going to say, `We need guns too.' "

Ian K. McKenzie, a principal lecturer at the Institute of Criminal Justice Studies at the University of Portsmouth, said, "People in England do not want Charlie Burglar going around with a gun in his pocket in the expectation that he'll meet armed officers."

By American standards, gun-related violence here is still almost risibly low. Last year, 7,362 crimes involving firearms were committed in all of England and Wales. In 2000, according to the most recent figures available, armed officers were sent to respond on 10,915 occasions, although their guns were not necessarily fired or even drawn. English police officers fired their guns seven times in all of 2001, killing three people.

The figures do not include Northern Ireland, where gun violence is more common and the police are routinely armed.

The figures are rising, and officers around the country say they are worried about the emergence of a new type of armed criminal. These men carry semiautomatic pistols and machine guns smuggled from Eastern Europe or reactivated from legally obtained decommissioned American guns. They have little compunction about shooting.

Armed robbery in London nearly doubled from 2000 to 2001, and shootings between criminals are rising, too.

A number of high-profile incidents, including one in which a would-be robber tried to snatch a diamond necklace from Liza Minnelli as her car was stopped at traffic lights in west London, has focused attention on violent street crime here.

Even so, there is a huge cultural and historical opposition to the routine arming of the police. Britain has no notion of the right to bear arms. Britain's gun control laws, already among the strictest in the world, were tightened significantly in 1996 after a man shot and killed 16 children and their teacher at a primary school in Dunblane, Scotland.

There are differences, too, between American and British perceptions of the role of the police in a democracy. British officers like to point out that their work is done "with consent" — meaning by the grace of the public they serve — and their approach has traditionally been cautious rather than confrontational.

In nationwide surveys of police officers, a wide majority have always said they do not want all officers to be armed.

But the figures vary from force to force, and in the most recent survey, conducted by a group that favors increasing the number of armed officers, almost half of the officers in the Metropolitan Police, London's force, said they wanted to carry firearms.

"At the moment, the offenders have superior arms to the police, and that should never happen," said Norman Brennan, a London police officer who campaigns for a more extensively armed force and has been involved in several operations in which a criminal was armed and he was not in his 23-year career.

"We should start recruiting officers with the right temperament to be able to carry a firearm," he said, "because in the next few years this is the only way we'll be able to handle the increased threat from terrorism, armed robberies and criminals shooting each other."

But Commander Alan Brown of the Metropolitan Police said the answer was not widespread arming but strategic deployment of trained armed officers.

"If you asked some of our officers, they'd say that they'd like to be armed," Commander Brown said. "They'd be the last people I'd ever give a gun to."

The Met, as the force is known, currently has a number of armed options at its disposal, included armed response vehicles, in which officers with semiautomatic pistols and rifles drive around London's meaner streets and respond to reports of armed incidents. A specialist unit is available for operations including surveillance and siege. Officers at London's airports are routinely armed.

Although firearms officers are retrained for three days each month, several incidents last year raised questions about how effectively the Met responds to armed criminals. In one instance a 29-year-old man brandishing a cigarette lighter shaped like a gun was shot and killed by the police.

"There needs to be a clearer policy on how policing is done and how arms are being policed in society," said Peter Squires, who teaches criminology at the University of Brighton.

Mr. Squires said he worried that the Manchester operation might be the thin end of a wedge that would eventually result in a wholly armed police service.

"So far, these sorts of operations have been localized and specialist and short-term," he said. "But the idea that we're willing to countenance it on a more routine basis is another incremental step in arming the police. Now some people are saying it's inevitable."



TOPICS: Culture/Society; News/Current Events; United Kingdom
KEYWORDS: banglist
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1 posted on 06/01/2002 11:24:11 PM PDT by kattracks
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To: *bang_list

2 posted on 06/01/2002 11:31:57 PM PDT by Libertarianize the GOP
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To: kattracks
"In one instance a 29-year-old man brandishing a cigarette lighter shaped like a gun was shot and killed by the police.

A possible Darwin Award winner?

3 posted on 06/01/2002 11:35:48 PM PDT by blackbart.223
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To: kattracks
Armed robbery in London nearly doubled from 2000 to 2001, and shootings between criminals are rising, too.

And some police brass don't want all police armed? Why not raise the hiring standards? Eventually, idiots at the top will be eliminated. On the other hand, maybe their police aren't qualified to carry!? Back to the hiring standards.

4 posted on 06/01/2002 11:39:33 PM PDT by Mike K
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To: kattracks
It amazes me that more acts of terrorism haven't occured in Merry ole England. terrorists don't give a hoot about gun laws. are these people so stupid that they think arming police officers will cause criminals to start arming themselves. What fools.
5 posted on 06/01/2002 11:40:15 PM PDT by sharkdiver
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To: kattracks
This is the stupidest thing I've ever read. The bad guys already have guns and these Brits don't want an armed police force. They deserve to be robbed at gunpoint. A once great country is doomed.
6 posted on 06/01/2002 11:54:10 PM PDT by etcetera
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To: kattracks
Unbridled immigration has changed the culture in Britain. Now mainly the criminals have guns and the helpless citizens can only be victims. The only answer is, you guessed it, more guns. Right now the criminals have nothing to fear since they are the only ones with guns.

I wonder how long it will take liberal Britain to loosen their gun laws so a citizen can have one for self defense?

7 posted on 06/02/2002 12:00:32 AM PDT by Reagan is King
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To: sharkdiver
Actually, there have been a lot of terrorist activity in Britain over the last 30 years. That would be the IRA, so where have you been hiding? And don’t forget, the IRA was financed by American money, and successive American governments turned a blind eye. What fools for supporting terrorism.
8 posted on 06/02/2002 1:43:45 AM PDT by spitz
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To: kattracks
Note to British Police: Your criminals already have machine guns and are not afraid to shoot. And no, they're not from US gun shows either. It's too late to worry about yer cozy 'Bobby' image. If the public is more alarmed that a cop carries a pistol than if a criminal does, then I don't quite know what to say. Have another pint, I guess, and hope for a safe walk home.
9 posted on 06/02/2002 4:20:08 AM PDT by Sender
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To: Reagan is King
I wonder how long it will take liberal Britain to loosen their gun laws so a citizen can have one for self defense?

Check out the 'Republicans get the last laugh' thread to see why the British aren't citizens. Firearms will never be licensed for use as tools for self defence, since carrying any kind of weapon for personal defence has been illegal in Britain since the 1950s. Britons can also be prosecuted for defending themselves.

The British government slowly erodes the rights of its subjects since there is no written constitution. The laws on firearm ownership were first tightened shortly after the Russian revolution because the ruling classes were scared of a communist insurrection. It is obvious that the British aristocracy have never been comfortable with their subjects owning firearms and so they have used every incident as an opportunity to further erode that right.

Because the number of firearms held by criminals in Britain has actually increased by almost a third since all handguns were prohibited, then another massacres like that at Dunblane could occur. I don't think that encouraging Britons to carry firearms for personal defence would be a solution to our crime problem. But I do believe that the government has immorally seized on events over the years to destroy an activity they have always been uncomfortable with.

10 posted on 06/02/2002 4:47:14 AM PDT by David Hunter
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To: kattracks
Lest we not forget, In WW2, England BEGGED the U.S. to send them small arms to defend the empire with, for they had been taken away from the 'subjects'.
So England was armed with small arms again, and after the threat of invasion from Germany had passed, the arms were once again taken away from the 'subjects' in the name of "Saftey". (Sound familiar?)
So now England ia once again under threat of invasion, But this time it is the armed criminal, not foreign powers doing the invading. So now the Bobbies have to be armed.
Remember your History lessons folks. I'm proud to be a 'citizen' and not a 'subject'.
11 posted on 06/02/2002 4:59:50 AM PDT by Maquisard
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To: Maquisard
I'm proud to be a 'citizen' and not a 'subject'.

Lucky you, some of us don't have any choice.

12 posted on 06/02/2002 5:03:17 AM PDT by David Hunter
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To: kattracks
From a clipping from Scotland Yard back in the 60's an eye-witness was asked to describe the perpetrator. He could not judge the height or weight, nor could he remember eye or hair color.

What he could remember was that the herring-bone jacket the robber was wearing, clashed so badly with his plaid tie, that he could not remember anything else about him.

13 posted on 06/02/2002 6:32:30 AM PDT by capt. norm
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To: David Hunter
"Because the number of firearms held by criminals in Britain has actually increased by almost a third since all handguns were prohibited"

You're right, partially because everyone who didn't give up their gun(s), and I would be one of them, automatically became criminals by so doing.

14 posted on 06/02/2002 6:35:59 AM PDT by capt. norm
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To: kattracks
But Commander Alan Brown of the Metropolitan Police said the answer was not widespread arming but strategic deployment of trained armed officers. "If you asked some of our officers, they'd say that they'd like to be armed," Commander Brown said. "They'd be the last people I'd ever give a gun to."

And these are the officers supposedly defending law and order? The "last people" their boss would give a gun to? After the terrorists, I suppose.

15 posted on 06/02/2002 8:04:04 AM PDT by 07055
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To: David Hunter
It is obvious that the British aristocracy have never been comfortable with their subjects owning firearms and so they have used every incident as an opportunity to further erode that right.

I don't disagree with you here---but they don't even want the police to have guns. Apparently, the only people they allow to be armed are gangsters and terrorists.

16 posted on 06/02/2002 8:06:37 AM PDT by 07055
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To: Reagan is King
I wonder how long it will take liberal Britain to loosen their gun laws so a citizen can have one for self defense?

Never. That will never happen. The government is willing to arm the police because the police are a part of government; the citizenry is not. No need to arm potentional enemies when you can keep them dependant on the state to solve all their problems.

Tuor

17 posted on 06/02/2002 8:11:35 AM PDT by Tuor
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To: capt. norm
You're right, partially because everyone who didn't give up their gun(s), and I would be one of them, automatically became criminals by so doing.

If you had refused to give up your gun(s), you would have got a prison sentence. A lot of sports shooters sent their pistols abroad, so they could use them on holiday.

The number of crimes that are committed with a firearm have increased even though virtually all handguns were prohibited in 1996. Also a larger proportion of violent criminals are armed compared to pre-prohibition.

18 posted on 06/02/2002 8:41:44 AM PDT by David Hunter
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To: kattracks
"I think that violence promotes violence"

Guess you guys should have just rolled over and begged for mercy in WWII then. Your armed resistance only promoted more violence, after all.

19 posted on 06/02/2002 8:43:18 AM PDT by RogueIsland
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To: kattracks
At one time in British history not too long ago, the average time between a murder and the killer hanging from the neck was 21 days. I don't know if they alway had the right person and I wish I could remember what year this was supposed to have occured.

Today, they have open immigration, the police aren't trusted, statistics of Northern Ireland are not included and anyone using force to defend themselves is jailed. The authorities are still wondering what they should do.

20 posted on 06/02/2002 8:43:39 AM PDT by Shooter 2.5
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