Police State

Insight magazine ^ | November 9, 2001 | Kelly Patricia O’Meara

[Stand Watch Listen]

Rep. Ron Paul says the text of the USA PATRIOT bill was not made available for review before the vote.

If the United States is at war against terrorism to preserve freedom, a new coalition of conservatives and liberals is asking, why is it doing so by wholesale abrogation of civil liberties? They cite the Halloween-week passage of the antiterrorism bill — a new law that carries the almost preposterously gimmicky title: "Uniting and Strengthening America by Providing Appropriate Tools Required to Intercept and Obstruct Terrorism Act" (USA PATRIOT Act). Critics both left and right are saying it not only strips Americans of fundamental rights but does little or nothing to secure the nation from terrorist attacks.

Rep. Ron Paul of Texas, one of only three Republican lawmakers to buck the House leadership and the Bush administration to vote against this legislation, is outraged not only by what is contained in the antiterrorism bill but also by the effort to stigmatize opponents. Paul tells Insight, "The insult is to call this a 'patriot bill' and suggest I'm not patriotic because I insisted upon finding out what is in it and voting no. I thought it was undermining the Constitution, so I didn't vote for it — and therefore I'm somehow not a patriot. That's insulting."

Paul confirms rumors circulating in Washington that this sweeping new law, with serious implications for each and every American, was not made available to members of Congress for review before the vote. "It's my understanding the bill wasn't printed before the vote — at least I couldn't get it. They played all kinds of games, kept the House in session all night, and it was a very complicated bill. Maybe a handful of staffers actually read it, but the bill definitely was not available to members before the vote."

And why would that be? "This is a very bad bill," explains Paul, "and I think the people who voted for it knew it and that's why they said, 'Well, we know it's bad, but we need it under these conditions.'" Meanwhile, efforts to obtain copies of the new law were stonewalled even by the committee that wrote it.

What is so bad about the new law? "Generally," says Paul, "the worst part of this so-called antiterrorism bill is the increased ability of the federal government to commit surveillance on all of us without proper search warrants." He is referring to Section 213 (Authority for Delaying Notice of the Execution of a Warrant), also known as the "sneak-and-peak" provision, which effectively allows police to avoid giving prior warning when searches of personal property are conducted. Before the USA PATRIOT Act, the government had to obtain a warrant and give notice to the person whose property was to be searched. With one vote by Congress and the sweep of the president's pen, say critics, the right of every American fully to be protected under the Fourth Amendment against unreasonable searches and seizures was abrogated.

The Fourth Amendment states: "The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated; and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."

According to the American Civil Liberties Union (ACLU), which is joining with conservatives as critics of the legislation, the rationale for the Fourth Amendment protection always has been to provide the person targeted for search with the opportunity to "point out irregularities in the warrant, such as the fact that the police may be at the wrong address or that the warrant is limited to a search of a stolen car, so the police have no authority to be looking into dresser drawers." Likely bad scenarios involving the midnight knock at the door are not hard to imagine.

Paul, a strict constructionist (see Picture Profile, Sept. 3), has a pretty good idea of what Americans may anticipate. "I don't like the sneak-and-peak provision because you have to ask yourself what happens if the person is home, doesn't know that law enforcement is coming to search his home, hasn't a clue as to who's coming in unannounced … and he shoots them. This law clearly authorizes illegal search and seizure, and anyone who thinks of this as antiterrorism needs to consider its application to every American citizen."

The only independent in the House, Rep. Bernie Sanders from Vermont, couldn't support the bill for similar reasons: "I took an oath to support and defend the Constitution of the United States, and I'm concerned that voting for this legislation fundamentally violates that oath. And the contents of the legislation have not been subjected to serious hearings or searching examination."

Nadine Strossen, president of the ACLU and professor of law at New York University, tells Insight, "The sneak-and-peak provision is just one that will be challenged in the courts. We're not only talking about the sanctity of the home, but this includes searches of offices and other places. It is a violation of the Fourth Amendment and poses tremendous problems with due process. By not notifying someone about a search, they don't have the opportunity to raise a constitutional challenge to the search."

Even before the ink on the president's signature had dried, the FBI began to take advantage of the new search-and-seizure provisions. A handful of companies have reported visits from federal agents demanding private business records. C.L. "Butch" Otter (R-Idaho), another of the three GOP lawmakers who found the legislation unconstitutional, says he knew this provision would be a problem. "Section 215 authorizes the FBI to acquire any business records whatsoever by order of a secret U.S. court. The recipient of such a search order is forbidden from telling any person that he has received such a request. This is a violation of the First Amendment right to free speech and the Fourth Amendment protection of private property."

Media Credit: Contributed

Rep. Otter says the PATRIOT law gives federal agents unconstitutional police powers.

Otter added that "some of these provisions place more power in the hands of law enforcement than our Founding Fathers could have dreamt and severely compromises the civil liberties of law-abiding Americans. This bill, while crafted with good intentions, is rife with constitutional infringements I could not support."

Like most who actually have read and analyzed the new law, Strossen disagrees with several provisions not only because they appear to her to be unconstitutional but also because the sweeping changes it codifies have little or nothing to do with fighting terrorism. "There is no connection," insists Strossen, "between the Sept. 11 attacks and what is in this legislation. Most of the provisions relate not just to terrorist crimes but to criminal activity generally. This happened, too, with the 1996 antiterrorism legislation where most of the surveillance laws have been used for drug enforcement, gambling and prostitution."

"I like to refer to this legislation," continues Strossen, "as the 'so-called antiterrorism law,' because on its face the provisions are written to deal with any crime, and the definition of terrorism under the new law is so severely broad that it applies far beyond what most people think of as terrorism." A similar propensity of governments to slide down the slippery slope recently was reported in England by The Guardian newspaper. Under a law passed last year by the British Parliament, investigators can get information from Internet-service providers about their subscribers without a warrant. Supposedly an antiterrorist measure, the British law will be applied to minor crimes, tax collection and public-health purposes.

Under the USA PATRIOT Act in this country, Section 802 defines domestic terrorism as engaging in "activity that involves acts dangerous to human life that violate the laws of the United States or any state and appear to be intended: (i) to intimidate or coerce a civilian population; (ii) to influence the policy of a government by intimidation or coercion; or (iii) to affect the conduct of a government by mass destruction, assassination or kidnapping."

The ACLU has posted on its Website, www.aclu.org, a comprehensive list of the provisions and summarizes the increased powers for federal spying. The following are a sample of some of the changes as a result of the so-called USA PATRIOT Act. The legislation:

• minimizes judicial supervision of federal telephone and Internet surveillance by law-enforcement authorities.
  
  
• expands the ability of the government to conduct secret searches.
  
  
• gives the attorney general and the secretary of state the power to designate domestic groups as terrorist organizations and deport any noncitizen who belongs to them.
  
  
• grants the FBI broad access to sensitive business records about individuals without having to show evidence of a crime.
  
  
• leads to large-scale investigations of American citizens for "intelligence" purposes.

More specifically, Section 203 (Authority to Share Criminal Investigative Information) allows information gathered in criminal proceedings to be shared with intelligence agencies, including but not limited to the CIA — in effect, say critics, creating a political secret police. No court order is necessary for law enforcement to provide untested information gleaned from otherwise secret grand-jury proceedings, and the information is not limited to the person being investigated.

Furthermore, this section allows law enforcement to share intercepted telephone and Internet conversations with intelligence agencies. No court order is necessary to authorize the sharing of this information, and the CIA is not prohibited from giving this information to foreign-intelligence operations — in effect, say critics, creating an international political secret police.

According to Strossen, "The concern here is about the third branch of government. One of the overarching problems that pervades so many of these provisions is reduction of the role of judicial oversight. The executive branch is running roughshod over both of the other branches of government. I find it very bothersome that the government is going to have more widespread access to e-mail and Websites and that information can be shared with other law-enforcement and even intelligence agencies. So, again, we're going to have the CIA in the business of spying on Americans — something that certainly hasn't gone on since the 1970s."

Strossen is referring to the illegal investigations of thousands of Americans under Operation CHAOS, spying carried out by the CIA and National Security Agency against U.S. activists and opponents of the war in Southeast Asia.

Nor do the invasion-of-privacy provisions of the new law end with law enforcement illegally searching homes and offices, say critics. Under Section 216 of the USA PATRIOT Act (Modification of Authorities Relating to Use of Pen Registers and Trap and Trace Devices), investigators freely can obtain access to "dialing, routing and signaling information." While the bill provides no definition of "dialing, routing and signaling information," the ACLU says this means they even would "apply law-enforcement efforts to determine what Websites a person visits." The police need only certify the information they are in search of is "relevant to an ongoing criminal investigation."

This does not meet probable-cause standards — that a crime has occurred, is occurring or will occur. Furthermore, regardless of whether a judge believes the request is without merit, the order must be given to the requesting law-enforcement agency, a veritable rubber stamp and potential carte blanche for fishing exhibitions.

Additionally, under Section 216, law enforcement now will have unbridled access to Internet communications. The contents of e-mail messages are supposed to be separated from the e-mail addresses, which presumably is what interests law enforcement. To conduct this process of separation, however, Congress is relying on the FBI to separate the content from the addresses and disregard the communications.

In other words, the presumption is that law enforcement is only interested in who is being communicated with and not what is said, which critics say is unlikely. Citing political implications they note this is the same FBI that during the Clinton administration could not adequately explain how hundreds of personal FBI files of Clinton political opponents found their way from the FBI to the Clinton White House.

And these are just a few of the provisions and problems. While critics doubt it will help in the tracking of would-be terrorists, the certainty is that homes and places of business will be searched without prior notice. And telephone and Internet communications will be recorded and shared among law-enforcement and intelligence agencies, all in the name of making America safe from terrorism.

Strossen understands the desire of lawmakers to respond forcefully to the Sept. 11 attacks but complains that this is more of the same old same old. "Government has the tendency," she explains, "to want to proliferate during times of crisis, and that's why we have to constantly fight against it. It's a natural impulse and, in many ways, I don't fault it. In some ways they're just doing their job by aggressively seeking as much law-enforcement power as possible, but that's why we have checks and balances in our system of government, and that's why I'm upset that Congress just rolled and played dead on this one."

Paul agrees: "This legislation wouldn't have made any difference in stopping the Sept. 11 attacks," he says. "Therefore, giving up our freedoms to get more security when they can't prove it will do so makes no sense. I seriously believe this is a violation of our liberties. After all, a lot of this stuff in the bill has to do with finances, search warrants and arrests."

For the most part, continues Paul, "our rights have been eroded as much by our courts as they have been by Congress. Whether it's Congress being willing to give up its prerogatives on just about everything to deliver them to an administration that develops new and bigger agencies, or whether it's the courts, there's not enough wariness of the slippery slope and insufficient respect and love of liberty."

What does Paul believe the nation's Founding Fathers would think of this law? "Our forefathers would think it's time for a revolution. This is why they revolted in the first place." Says Paul with a laugh, "They revolted against much more mild oppression."

Kelly Patricia O'Meara is an investigative reporter for Insight.

[Fixit]

Bump for Dr. No.

[DLfromthedesert]

I hope this goes to court ASAP. Free citizens, refuse to comply with laws that are unconstitutional. Our congressmen have become rogues.!!!

[DLfromthedesert]

FYI

[DLfromthedesert]

What say you?

[LiberteeBell]

bttt

[DrLiberty]

THE FOURTH AMENDMENT IS DEAD....REST IN PEACE, LADY LIBERTY

WE DIDN'T LOVE YOU ENOUGH. WE LET OUR PEOPLE BECOME IGNORANT OF THE GREAT FREEDOMS OF OUR CONSTITUTION TO THE POINT THAT THIS VERY PIECE OF FREE SPEECH, WILL IN ALL LIKELIHOOD BE MONITORED BY "THE AUTHORITIES" FOR FURTHER REVIEW.

MAY OUR CHILDREN AND THEIR CHILDREN FORGIVE US.

[Mudboy Slim]

"Critics both left and right are saying it not only strips Americans of fundamental rights but does little or nothing to secure the nation from terrorist attacks."

I'm with the critics on this one, my FRiend.

"Rep. Ron Paul of Texas, one of only three Republican lawmakers to buck the House leadership and the Bush administration to vote against this legislation, is outraged not only by what is contained in the antiterrorism bill but also by the effort to stigmatize opponents. Paul tells Insight, "The insult is to call this a 'patriot bill' and suggest I'm not patriotic because I insisted upon finding out what is in it and voting no. I thought it was undermining the Constitution, so I didn't vote for it — and therefore I'm somehow not a patriot. That's insulting."

Ron Paul's my HERO!! This is a horrible bill and needs to be gotten rid of by the Legislature before it eventually gets overturned by the SCOTUS!! Folks who are gonna be flip-flopping on their votes can use the excuse that they never saw the original legislation and were misled...but this Legislation deserves to be relegated to the Ashbin of History, IMHO.

FReegards...MUD

BTW...Go Insight Go!! Excellent publication!!

[Mudboy Slim]

"The Fourth Amendment states: "The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated; and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."

What is it about "shall not be violated" that seems so hard fer Congress to grasp?!

Great post, SWL...MUD

[Texaggie79]

ping...

[Grut]

What is it about "shall not be violated" that seems so hard fer Congress to grasp?!

I think it's the "not."

[eniapmot]

More from the Nanny State.

It's like quicksand.

Thanks for posting this.

[eniapmot]

Not much action here. Pass on.

[SR71A]

Excellent article. Thank you for posting it.

One of the other issues in this is how a law can be constitutional if the legislative branch did not understand what it contained . I would like to see an appeal based on this alone. Somehow we have to stop this "fast track" "back room comitee" process. Too much legislation, especially spending bills, get voted on without being read.

[Bloody Sam Roberts]

"What is it about "shall not be violated" that seems so hard fer Congress to grasp?!"

I agree, this is a bad bill. But rather than concentrate on what "shall not be violated" means, I think that some effort should be put into defining what "the people" means.
If this is to be a bill that combats 'terrorism', then it should be no problem for true patriots to put legislation on paper that states, in effect, if you are not a legal citizen, then you are afforded no rights under The Constitution and ought beware.

"We the People" should stand for no more. And no less.

[Aerial]

There's going to real trouble coming from this so-called Patriot Act.

Many people will not lay down and take it.

When agents sneak into homes and are shot by home owners it will only add fuel to the fire for gun control legislation.

I see a bad moon rising.

[Stand Watch Listen]

bttt

[Fixit]

I see a bad moon rising.

Could it be ...

Osama bin Lunar?

[Stand Watch Listen]

bttt

[Free Vulcan]

anyone who supports this act is no patriot.

[Basil Duke]

I agree with your sentiment, but how does one not comply with a warrantless search when one is not home at the time the law is rifling through your possessions?

[Uncle Bill]

23 replies to this and many are the same person? And from Insight Magazine as well. The Republic is falling.

[Doctor Doom]

MAY OUR CHILDREN AND THEIR CHILDREN FORGIVE US.

If we let this happen, why shouldn't they curse our names and spit on our graves?

[texlok]

This bill would not have stopped 911.

Anybody who thinks they need these kinds of laws and what not passed to feel safe do not deserve the liberty they have, for they are slowly but surely giving it up, like good little sheeple.

[Dolphy]

Under the USA PATRIOT Act in this country, Section 802 defines domestic terrorism as engaging in "activity that involves acts dangerous to human life that violate the laws of the United States or any state and appear to be intended: (i) to intimidate or coerce a civilian population; (ii) to influence the policy of a government by intimidation or coercion; or (iii) to affect the conduct of a government by mass destruction, assassination or kidnapping."

What is it that you all do that involves acts dangerous to human life that violates the laws of the United States?

[B4Ranch]

"WHAT IS A PATRIOT"

PATRIOTS are not "Revolutionaries" trying to overthrow the government of the United States.

PATRIOTS are "Counter-Revolutionaries" trying to prevent the government of the United States from overthrowing the Constitution of the United States. - Unknown Author

What brings the PATRIOTS out of the woodwork?

When the constitutional process, the system of checks and balances set up by the Founders, has not just been thrown out of kilter, it has been thrown out the window. These socialist maneuvers are what attracts PATRIOTS to the streets of America.

[Uncle Bill]

BTTT

[Uncle Bill]

BTTT

[B4Ranch]

We are to blame because we elected the crooked bastards.

[Orbiter]

They seemed so perfectly nice when we were shopping.

[Uncle Bill]

Yep. Just remark the ballots next time. It works in Pierce County, Washington.

49.5 % of American adults would vote for the United States Constitution if it were on the ballot today. -

CLEAN

Report posted on 3/11/97

Secret vote counting center

Oct. 31, 1996 at about 9:00 AM in Pierce County: An election worker jumps up in surprise when he hears the sound of a camera. He slams the door to a room where six men were handling absentee ballots, in secret, during the 1996 General Election. No Republican or Demcractic observers were present and no notice was given as required by state elections law.

Pierce County Deputy James Loeffelholz orders Billy Joe Arends to remove Susan Coffey from the Pierce County warehouse. The handling of absentee ballots is a public process, yet Deputy Loeffelholz, asking for help, chose to give her the bum's rush out. While outside he did nothing to stop the assault by Billy Joe Arends on citizen volunteer Susan Coffey. On July 31, 1998 Loeffelholz filed a defamation lawsuit against CLEAN for publishing a report on this incident.

Three hundred pound Pierce County Election worker and Pierce County Republican Party Sargent-of-Arms Billy Joe Arends is not content with just manhandling Susan Coffey out of a public process, but proceeds to strangle this 100 pound women outside the warehouse. Arends is no longer the Sargent of Arms, he was voted out shortly after this incident. He is still employed by Pierce County Auditor Cathy Pearsall-Stipek to this day. The next day's Tacoma News Tribune quoted Pearsall-Stipek, "We don't feel he did anything wrong."

© Copyright 1996-1998 by CLEAN. The CLEAN home page is a project of CLEAN, a 501 (c) (3) non-profit tax exempt organization. All rights reserved. All material on this web page may be redistributed for non-commercial use provided CLEAN is cited as the source.

Return to CLEAN Home page

---

Shadow Government of The United States and the Decline of America

[Uncle Bill]

U.S. Government Flunks Computer Security Tests
"The U.S. government has earned failing marks for computer security for the second year in a row, according to a report released today by a congressional oversight committee.

More than half of 24 major federal agencies flunked the latest "computer security report card," according to a House Government Reform subcommittee. The Justice, Defense, Energy and Treasury departments earned failing grades; the Department of Transportation received the lowest score."

Here is a list of what grades the GAO assigned to the agencies:

B-minus: Social Security Administration

C-plus: Labor Dept.

C: Nuclear Regulatory Commission

D-plus: Commerce Dept., NASA

D: Education Dept., General Services Administration

D-minus: Environmental Protection Agency, National Science Foundation, Dept. of Health and Human Services

F: Depts. of Agriculture, Defense, Energy, Interior, Justice, State, Housing and Urban Development, Transportation, Treasury and Veterans' Administration. Also, U.S. Agency for International Development, Office of Personnel Management, Small Business Administration, and the Federal Emergency Management Agency.

[OXENinFLA]

BTTT

[error99]

Amen.

[oceanperch]

and they called us conspeiracy theory nuts....what will they cry out when it is to late....we can only say told ya so...

[Uncle Bill]

GOVERNMENT TERRORISM - From Ruby Ridge To Waco And Beyond

[error99]

The Republic is dead. - Long live the Republic.

The question is...
What, if anything, are any of us going to do about it?
Other than typing on these keyboards and "mitching and boning" about it to one another. Is there nothing constructive to be done? Or do we just sit back and watch whats left of it fall down around our feet?
All of this, for the most part, is just preaching to the choir.

[OXENinFLA]

http://www.darpa.mil/iao/EARS.htm

Program Objective:

The Effective Affordable Reusable Speech-To-Text (EARS) program is developing speech-to-text (automatic transcription) technology whose output is substantially richer and much more accurate than currently possible. This will make it possible for machines to do a much better job of detecting, extracting , summarizing, and translating important information. It will also enable humans to understand what was said by reading transcripts instead of listening to audio signals.

Program Strategy:

EARS is focusing on natural, unconstrained human-human speech from broadcasts and telephone conversations in multiple languages. The intent is to create core enabling technology suitable for a wide range of advanced applications.

EARS encompasses wide-ranging, multidisciplinary research; quantitative evaluations of algorithm accuracy and utility; and efficient technology demonstration prototypes. Outside groups are invited to participate in the annual Rich Transcription evaluations run by NIST.

NOW MY QUESTION IS: How would a Warrent even be issued?

[mommadooo3]

This article implies that only three lawmakers refused to vote for this...sight unseen. Is that true?

IF true, is there a way to get the listing of those who DID vote for it?

I must be REALLY 'old and senile', cuz I 'think' I can remember that if it was klintler who wanted to try this commie crap, there used to be a place called FR that would sound the alarm.

Well, gotta go find my rockin'chair, cane, and depends, I reckon.

[Karsus]

It's an GOPer so it's OK if GWB does it! A lot of the posters on FR have different definitions of wrong depending on which side does it.

Wrong is no longer Wrong.

[Karsus]

Please excuse the errors, it has been a long night. :->

[B4Ranch]

"WHAT IS A PATRIOT"

PATRIOTS are not "Revolutionaries" trying to overthrow the government of the United States.

PATRIOTS are "Counter-Revolutionaries" trying to prevent the government of the United States from overthrowing the Constitution of the United States. - Unknown Author

What brings the PATRIOTS out of the woodwork?

When the constitutional process, the system of checks and balances set up by the Founders, has not just been thrown out of kilter, it has been thrown out the window. These socialist maneuvers are what attracts PATRIOTS to the streets of America.

[MissAmericanPie]

Lawmakers could not get a copy to read, then they voted for it sight unseen because it was promised that the law would sunshine in four years, each congressman wanted to look like they were doing something. They were lied to. Why the lie?

Given the situation with terrorists and the fact that the government has zero intention of doing one thing about any kind of immigration from anywhere, a majority of people most likely thought that this wouldn't be the first time in our histroy that we stepped on civil rights to ensure the safety and survival of the USofA. So no one is making, or has made a fuss.

Having been assured that the law sunshines in four years everyone felt pretty comfortable allowing the FBI to easedrop on terrorist across state lines, and international borders, read their email, etc. In four years that ability would vanish and we would have nabbed the bad guys who do not deserve to be able to hide behind our protections. But the Bush administration lied, the worse parts of this bill never sunshine. That is the issue I have objections to, and that to this very day, we don't know what worse things are in this bill.

Not only that but let's put all of Bush's litte bits and pieces together to form a picture. Here you have a man that knows he has no intention of doing one workable thing, like stopping immigration from terrorist nations. So it's easy to paint him as just some politician tap dancing for the public as if the things he has put forward actually accomplishes anything. But when you put all these bits and pieces together it spells totalitarian globalist.

The Patriot Act, named that so that responsible representatives like Ron Paul could be accused of being un-patriot for not voting for it. He was the only congressman that acted responsibly. The Patriot Act is anything but Patriotic.

TIPS, your cable man is watching you, so is your mail man, and the trucker you just passed. Isn't this a bit of an over reaction on Bush's part, subject to abuse? Before you say no, keep in mind that the Maryland police are going to go door to door to check out all the tips they received during the sniper investigation in D.C. to search individuals for illegal guns. We should be kissing Dick Armey's feet for blocking this one. He has been scared right into the arms of the ACLU as a consultant because of the worries he has, along with Bob Barr.

Let's don't forget the FBI confiscating "legally owned" weapons with the false promise of their return.

Don't tell me that something isn't going on when Armey and Graham both leave office on the crest of a Republican wave at the same time in the same year. I would love to know that story. But that is another subject, maybe.

Now the Pentagon wants to keep a data base on everyone, that would be e v e r y o n e. Now why is that? Why does the Pentagon need to know anything about civilians? Is it because the posse comutatus law is going to be changed to that extent?

Homeland security, the very name should send shivers up your back, commrade. It is projected to cost 32 billion in seven years or so, to consolidate 22 useless, disfunctional agencies into one large disfunctional agency and not one person in government, or out, can tell you how it is suppose to function and what it's goals are. All we do know is that the two agencies that have proven beyond doubt to need oversight, the FBI and the CIA will not be included in it.

This is the largest overhaul of government ever, and placed in the hands of Tom Ridge, making him one of the most powerful figgures in government. Who is Tom Ridge? Someone playing his hand very close to the cuff about what he is putting together. Shouldn't he have some type of oversight by the congress, since he is changing government to a huge extent? It is a sad state of affairs when congress is afraid to challange a popular President for fear of retaliation on the part of an unwatchful adoring public.

The mindset of Americans has certainly changed when they are willing to accept the premise of being guilty until they can prove they are innocent. The WOD that assumes guilt until the citizen can prove he is innocent, the IRS's "Know Your Customer" that they were forced to drop, only to be picked up by the DEA, requiring your bank report you for any unusual activity in your account. And the horrifying specter of grandma's being searched at the airports while arabs are waved through.

Several times pre 9-11 I made the comment that we would not recognize the USofA in five years, I was wrong, it only took one year. Will government abuse it's powers?

The WOD has only produced a few hundred abuses suffered by Americans at the hands of local speed trap towns where the police dept has increased it's revenue by confiscating the car and cash of innocent Americans, who never get their property back even when the court rules in their favor.

The infamous BATF has only killed a few dozen innocent people as well as the FBI. But now every agency in D.C. wants it's own swat type enforcement branch, such as the EPA. What do they need with a swat team? Are they going to take down polluters? Drop some guy for tossing a cigg out his side window? What the heck does the EPA need with a swat team, or the Forest Dept? Is the Forest Dept going to take down some hunter that bagged over 15 quail? Interesting times and no one seems to notice much and if they do, Lord help them if they get nervous and light up in public.=o)

[B4Ranch]

Some folks just want to continue to believe that the man they chose, the one they adore cannot do wrong. Maybe they will see the truth someday, but don't count on them.

[mommadooo3]

I'll probably sound like one of 'those' Bush bashers, but I keep wondering how much Bush DID know or SUSPECT @ 9.11.01. (I admit, I'm not up to speed anymore 'cuz I've been off-line for months, and haven't had much time to sit long enough to catch up.) But it seems that maybe he knew SOMETHING but 'did a klintler' so that he could pull this crap he's implementing. It's all so bizzare it makes NO sense.

I no longer feel 'right' for having supported/voted for Bush. I should've voted for a FReeper. (Jim Robinson would've been a GOOD one...LOL, I think)